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Author Topic:   reliability of eye-witness accounts
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 61 of 97 (189763)
03-03-2005 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Trump won
03-02-2005 10:08 PM


quote:
Well thats not what I really meant but since I asked that question exactly how you answered it it's my fault.
I kind of meant any typeof miraculous happenings or in some way you doubted what you believe because of a memory you had which you were doubting.
Ah, I see.
Actually, I don't see.
Can you restate this question in a clearer way.
I am afraid I do not understand.

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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 62 of 97 (189764)
03-03-2005 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Trump won
03-02-2005 10:11 PM


Re: 100%
quote:
How did you figure out that wasn't true, what you were seeing? How did you figure out that wasn't true, what you were seeing?
One of the lawyers at that deposition read a statement from the woman who was kicked, and the whole reason she was going into the field was to get the leadrope off of one of the horses, but a different one from the one who kicked her.
I forgot that detail and constructed a false memory of which horse had the leadrope on it.

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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 63 of 97 (189767)
03-03-2005 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Trump won
03-02-2005 10:15 PM


Re: 100%
quote:
To the law no but to the girl I hope yes. What if she didn't get a good glance at the attacker. There are many variables you would have to know toreally answer that question.
Here's some more specific examples:
memory - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com
Many people have vivid and substantially accurate memories of events which are erroneous in one key aspect: the source of the memory. For example:
In the 1980 presidential campaign, Ronald Reagan repeatedly told a heartbreaking story of a World War II bomber pilot who ordered his crew to bail out after his plane had been seriously damaged by an enemy hit. His young belly gunner was wounded so seriously that he was unable to evacuate the bomber. Reagan could barely hold back his tears as he uttered the pilot's heroic response: "Never mind. We'll ride it down together." ...this story was an almost exact duplicate of a scene in the 1944 film "A Wing and a Prayer." Reagan had apparently retained the facts but forgotten their source (Schacter 1996, 287).
An even more dramatic case of source amnesia (also called memory misattribution) is that of the woman who accused memory expert Dr. Donald Thompson of having raped her. Thompson was doing a live interview for a television program just before the rape occurred. The woman had seen the program and "apparently confused her memory of him from the television screen with her memory of the rapist" (Schacter 1996, 114). Studies by Marcia Johnson et al. have shown that the ability to distinguish memory from imagination depends on the recall of source information.
Tom Kessinger, a mechanic at Elliott's Body Shop in Junction City, Kansas, gave a detailed description of two men he said had rented a Ryder truck like the one used in the Oklahoma City bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building. One looked just like Timothy McVeigh. The other wore a baseball cap and a T-shirt, and had a tattoo above the elbow on his left arm. That was Todd Bunting, who had rented a truck the day before McVeigh. Kessinger mixed the two memories but was absolutely certain the two came in together.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-03-2005 10:41 AM

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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 64 of 97 (189770)
03-03-2005 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by custard
03-02-2005 10:27 PM


Re: old and new view of eye witnesses
We have only in the last decade or two had the information necessary to realize how easily a memory may be twisted or created.
quote:
I absolutely disagree. While we may have made strides in this field of study, do you honestly believe that until only ten or twenty years ago eye witness testimony was considered to be as reliable as a 'video tape?' I don't think so; and, as I suggested, a cursory look at court transcripts or historical texts will give you quite a different impression.
Remember the hubub surrounding the "recovered memories of childhood abuse" a few years back where people were convicted solely on the basis of victim testimony? Remember the same kind of uproar there was over those Satanic cults which were killing children, complete with trials and convictions, except that those cults never existed?

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custard
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 97 (189775)
03-03-2005 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by nator
03-03-2005 11:01 AM


Re: old and new view of eye witnesses
schraf writes:
Remember the hubub surrounding the "recovered memories of childhood abuse" a few years back where people were convicted solely on the basis of victim testimony? Remember the same kind of uproar there was over those Satanic cults which were killing children, complete with trials and convictions, except that those cults never existed?
I also seem to remember that at the time the 'recovered memories' were hotly contested by the psychiatric community which ultimately led to the the 'revelation' that they were bogus.
No offense, but I don't understand your point. Are you saying because some people believed that recovered memories were legitimate, that everyone did?
Come on now, some people TODAY still believe in using hypnosis to 'assist' memory recall - of course that is rarely allowed in court; and where it is, it is always under a great deal of scrutiny.
This message has been edited by custard, 03-03-2005 11:53 AM

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 66 of 97 (189833)
03-03-2005 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by nator
03-03-2005 10:22 AM


Nevermind lol

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 67 of 97 (189834)
03-03-2005 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by nator
03-03-2005 10:29 AM


Re: 100%
Oh well.

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 68 of 97 (189836)
03-03-2005 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by nator
03-03-2005 10:39 AM


Re: 100%
That happens.

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DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3776 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 69 of 97 (189858)
03-03-2005 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by 1.61803
03-02-2005 10:45 PM


Re: Eye-Witness
Or how about looking all over the house for your glasses, cursing yourself for not putting them in the same place again and finally having someone point out that you are already using what you were looking for.

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Trae
Member (Idle past 4306 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


Message 70 of 97 (189971)
03-04-2005 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by custard
03-03-2005 11:51 AM


Re: old and new view of eye witnesses
I think you’re a focused on a point non-relevant to this discussion. You wrote of reasons why eyewitness testimony in the past would not be considered 100% reliable. If you look back at the list I think you’ll agree that the all those conditions go to either verifying a witness’ credibility or ability to perceive the evidence (obstructed view, lighting, etc). Those aren’t to my mind issues of the accuracy of memories.
The closest I could come up with that I think supports your claim would be cross-racial identification. That is something that I ‘remember’ as being an issue for longer than the last two decades. At the very least, the phrase, They all look alike predates the last couple of decades.

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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 71 of 97 (190062)
03-04-2005 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Trump won
03-03-2005 4:18 PM


Re: 100%
Yep, it happens, and happens quite often.
So, you agree that it is hardly trivial?

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 72 of 97 (190065)
03-04-2005 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by custard
03-03-2005 11:51 AM


Re: old and new view of eye witnesses
I think that if you ask, today, the majority of people (9/10+ ) to give an analogy to memory they will give something back that is "video tape" like. In other words, almost everyone still thinks that our memories are a "record" that they "rewatch" when remembering.
They would have the same questions about honesty, seeing conditions and such that you mentioned. These questions have nothing to do with the fundamental nature and reliability of memories. They are NOT like almost all of us think they are.
This message has been edited by NosyNed, 03-04-2005 14:04 AM

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 73 of 97 (190168)
03-05-2005 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by nator
03-04-2005 1:53 PM


Re: 100%
Well in justice I guess you could say it's important. But to your personal account, to your life experiences, your perception is the only thing that matters.

-one word to describe me, spectacular yes

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 74 of 97 (190170)
03-05-2005 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Trump won
03-05-2005 11:16 AM


But to your personal account, to your life experiences, your perception is the only thing that matters.
But that's not the only way to live. If one adopts a rigorous rational outlook, then this simply isn't true.

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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 97 (190177)
03-05-2005 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by crashfrog
03-05-2005 11:34 AM


Well that was the perception youformed form your memories, and lack there of-this is writen by chris
i didnt kno he had sigbned on
This message has been edited by prophex, 03-05-2005 12:06 AM

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