The Fact of Death

That is something that must always be considered when examining the life and teachings of Jesus. We have many decades of works from others such as the Buddha, Confucius, Mencious, Mo Tzu, Lao Zi and Haung-Po but Jesus taught for only three years and very, very little of his actual works have been preserved. The little we do have of Jesus teachings has a remarkable resemblance to the teaching of the eastern sages. So much of his teachings deal with behavior and relationships, the very same issues dealt with by the Buddha and the others.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Faith Eternal misery is what I equate eternal life with.Just contemplate never having an end to existence.Trillions upon trillions upon trillions of years and no let up.Whatever length of time you wish to consider has no meaning on the scale of infinite.What do you suppose you could occupy yourself with on such a scale?

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And since you know you cannot see yourself,
so well as by reflection, I, your glass,
will modestly discover to yourself,
that of yourself which you yet know not of

Jesus was not merely a teacher. He was the culmination of a previous 2000-year training of a particular people in the character and plans of the One God who made all things. He was the Savior promised to the human race all the way back in Eden and on up through the Israelite prophets. He came to die more than to teach. He came to establish his credentials -- as the promised Savior and in fact as the very God revealed in the Old Testament Himself -- and then die that others might live -- a completely new life as a "new creation" since the old creation had fallen. He came to undo the fall in Adam, to end death forever -- a task that will be completed upon his second coming. To compare Him to any mere religious teacher is ludicrous. "Awakening?" "Enlightenment?" The ideas are meaningless by comparison with the reality of Jesus Christ.This message has been edited by Faith, 05-16-2005 02:35 AM

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Faith
. Eternal nothingness doesn't really appeal to anybody but it isn't scary as eternal misery is.

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Eternal misery is what I equate eternal life with.Just contemplate never having an end to existence.Trillions upon trillions upon trillions of years and no let up.Whatever length of time you wish to consider has no meaning on the scale of infinite.What do you suppose you could occupy yourself with on such a scale?

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Unimaginable glories.

Faith Even the most marvelous vistas jade one on the scale of eternity.
Did you even stop to contemplate what the passing of a trillion years implies? Are you to seriously believe that after a mere trillion years you will be still full of wish for even more existence?Eternity with no rest from the assault of life makes even heaven a hell.

I don't see how death with no continuation is any different. Time without consciousness is instantaneous, is it not? What does it mean for there to be an end to your own conscious being?Seems to me "end" just doesn't apply to a conscious being. When it is conscious, there is time. When it is not conscious, there is no time. In other words, there's no "waiting" until the next time you're conscious... however that happens. "Awareness" can wait an undefined amount of time--long enough for the universe to try and repeat itself, or just to start from scratch again.I don't see how death solves the problem that you're asking Faith about. Would you be so kind to explain why you think it does?

Ben! No,for a conscious being there is the perception of time as a construct of the brain.When you are not conscious as,say,in a coma time passes on since it is a property of the world in which you are but your perception is not obseverved by the brain.When death occurs the processes that give you consciousness cease to function permanently as the structure of the molecules of which you are made lose the integrity necessary to maintain the brain and organs.
The entropy you produced throughout your life and have held at bay by obtaining energy from food scales to maximum and you no longer participate in this process and your existence as a mind and body comes to a halt. Awareness is a product of conscious processes which are themselves the product of the electrochemical inerplay within the tissues of your brain.This also ceases to exist at death. Since there is absolutely nothing of the consious entity you have that is your awareness of yourself,since this is an illusion produced by the brain as a consequence of having no nervous feedback loop of itself,at death this ceases to operate.This sense of self needs to cease existence as well since it too is a consequence of the activity of the brain.
As Isaac Asimov once stated "Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome."This message has been edited by sidelined, Mon, 2005-05-16 09:22 AM

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And since you know you cannot see yourself,
so well as by reflection, I, your glass,
will modestly discover to yourself,
that of yourself which you yet know not of

Maybe there would be some little pill you could take so that you could sleep for a few hundred years and wake up refreshed. You could do this periodically, you see, whenever you got bored.This message has been edited by robinrohan, 05-16-2005 03:02 PM

robinrohan And after the first 100,000,000 times you take a pill to let you sleep for a hundred years? You will always...have...more...time!Shit! What challenge could possibly be faced by those who live eternally? After seeing wonder after wonder after wonder after etc..etc... forever!Do you see what I am getting at?At what point does it all become boring?What do you do if after 1000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years you cannot be bothered anymore.You still must continue to exist!!This many years is no different from the first one on the scale of eternity.Trapped with no release from existence would be my version of hell.

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You could go to sleep for like a million years, and then when you woke up there would be all this new scenery. You'd be like going through space or something to different worlds.But yes, I see what you're saying.Heaven is not conceivable. For some reason, though, Hell is conceivable because you're not supposed to be happy in Hell.What an eerie thought.

One reason that I've never been able to believe GOD would knowingly be allknowing. If She is, there would certainly be more than justification for His occasional bitchy streak.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

We know nothing.Remember that.We can't describe a heaven.We can't describe a God.Don't even start thinking about what heaven would be like, with "wonders".We simply weren't built to know.I know, it's disappointing.

Yes, but is it not very intriguing that we can conceptualize hell but cannot conceptualize heaven?What does this say about human nature? Or perhaps it's some kind of logical problem connected with those 2 concepts?I don't know the answer to that question, but I think it's deep.This message has been edited by robinrohan, 05-16-2005 07:38 PM

Logically, I think it's a mistake to think of these two things as opposites. It's "pleasurable pain" is not an oxymoron, and neither is "painful pleasure." As far as I know, the systems communicating pain and pleasure are separate within the body as well. I'd say it's evidence that we're (at least our bodies are) designed for finite (I'd even say short) existence. I'd say pleasure is the evolutionary "carrot," hanging out in front of us (us being animals with a pleasure-reward system) and driving us to evolutionary "success." Pleasure often leads to satisfaction, i.e. a removal of drive. Pain, however, shouldn't habituate (go away) easily; if there's a problem that causes pain, in general it does no good to simply ignore it.Yes, this is a pseudo-scientific argument. Yes, I can add in science if necessary I used to be a lot "deeper" BEFORE I started studying psychology and neuroscience. Now I'm simply practical. Just ask my girlfriend

Who said anything about vistas. Life in eternity will be so different from our mortal life here it is unimaginable. I trust God who knows the human frame He created in His own image to know how to occupy me for all eternity engaging all the capacities, faculties, desires, interests, abilities, talents He gives me.But most of it will be joy in His very presence. Psalm 16:11: You will show me the path of life: in Your presence [is] fulness of joy; at Your right hand [there are] pleasures for evermore.