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Author Topic:   What if Jesus and Satan were real?
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 91 of 591 (81413)
01-28-2004 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by crashfrog
01-28-2004 10:18 PM


Obtuse!
God created oposits!
The very concept of an Oposit to god is ludacris (like the rapper )

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by crashfrog, posted 01-28-2004 10:18 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by roboto85, posted 01-29-2004 12:20 AM Yaro has replied

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 591 (81422)
01-29-2004 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Yaro
01-28-2004 10:44 PM


Re: Obtuse!
ok... and by the way. What in the heck is oposits? That's not a word.
[This message has been edited by roboto85, 01-29-2004]
[This message has been edited by roboto85, 01-29-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Yaro, posted 01-28-2004 10:44 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Yaro, posted 01-29-2004 12:37 AM roboto85 has not replied

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 591 (81423)
01-29-2004 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by crashfrog
01-28-2004 10:18 PM


But they're also going to be equal in power to God. That is to say that if the devil personifies the opposite of God, the devil must also personify evil power in equal measure to the good power of God.
Who says they're going to be equal? Love is much stronger than hate. Chocolate is the opposite of Vanilla, but that doesn't mean they're total opposites, or equal to eachother.
[This message has been edited by roboto85, 01-29-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by crashfrog, posted 01-28-2004 10:18 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Yaro, posted 01-29-2004 12:36 AM roboto85 has replied
 Message 97 by crashfrog, posted 01-29-2004 2:22 AM roboto85 has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 94 of 591 (81425)
01-29-2004 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by roboto85
01-29-2004 12:24 AM


Im not so sure about these oposits. It seems to me that we are having trouble pinning down what an oposit is. I mean we are dealing with a situation that is not black and white, and with subjective subject matter.
After all, one mans good is another mans bad, and vice versa. How are we supposed to quantify, what are obviously intangable human constructs, good and evil at any scale to be able to messure their intensity?
As you said, Chocolate is the oposit of vanilla, but some people like vanila better. Others feel that vanilla is the compliment of chocolate, like my g/f
Thats because these are subjective issues. So how can we say that god is good, and that satan is his oposit?
First off we know little about satan, and secondly, we have no way to quantify either parties amount of good vs. evil.
Aside from this, I would like to adress a point concerning the curent ideas about Satan being necessitated by god to be his oposit.
The logic goes, that since god is all good, there must be something all bad. Up vs. down, black vs. white, yadda yadda yadda
All I can say is that this makes no sense as at some point evil(satan?) didnt exist. Meaning that god existed without oposit, a moral Mobius strip if you will
So satan is not a necessity for gods goodness, and evil is obviously again, a product manufactured by YHWE.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by roboto85, posted 01-29-2004 12:24 AM roboto85 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by roboto85, posted 01-29-2004 12:42 AM Yaro has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 95 of 591 (81426)
01-29-2004 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by roboto85
01-29-2004 12:20 AM


hehheh...
Im a horrible speller in case you havent noticed
I try to run spell check when I can, but sometimes I forget. English is actually my second language, my first was spanish.
Adios!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by roboto85, posted 01-29-2004 12:20 AM roboto85 has not replied

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 591 (81428)
01-29-2004 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Yaro
01-29-2004 12:36 AM


I don't even believe that Satan is even God's full opposite. Nothing is bad enough to compare even oppositely with God's glory. The opposite of Satan would probably be any righteous angel who keeps Gods commands.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Yaro, posted 01-29-2004 12:36 AM Yaro has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 97 of 591 (81433)
01-29-2004 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by roboto85
01-29-2004 12:24 AM


Who says they're going to be equal?
That's the definition of opposite. Two vectors are opposing when they're equal in magnitude but opposing in direction. Opposites have equal absolute value, in other words. 2 and -2 are opposites. 1 and -5 are not.
Love is much stronger than hate.
Now you're just making stuff up. How do you propose we measure these quantities?
Chocolate is the opposite of Vanilla
On Planet Roboto, maybe. On Planet Earth they're both flavors. They're not opposite. You have to add vanila to make chocolate. How could they be opposites if one of them contains the other?
but that doesn't mean they're total opposites, or equal to eachother.
Look, I really don't feel the need to argue with somebody who can't be bothered to use sense. Opposites means that things are opposites! What the hell else would it mean?
This is the problem with talking about theology. There's absolutely no difference between talking about God and just making things up. If you're going to redefine words wholesale, then I guess God can have whatever contradictory qualities you want him to. It's just that you won't be able to communicate absolutely anything about God to anybody.
[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 01-29-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by roboto85, posted 01-29-2004 12:24 AM roboto85 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 02-04-2004 11:38 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 98 of 591 (83201)
02-04-2004 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by crashfrog
01-29-2004 2:22 AM


On Planet Roboto, maybe.
Planet Roboto! Wow,Crashfrog you may never explore all of the mysteries of THAT place! For the record and to get back on topic:
IF JESUS AND SATAN WERE REAL, the concept that you refer to, known as dualism, would NOT be a reality. Jesus is God incarnate by most orthodox christian definition. Satan is merely one of the top three arch angels...a mere created being. The Catholic Encyclopedia defines dualism thusly:
Dualism=Like most other philosophical terms, has been employed in different meanings by different schools.First, the name has been used to denote the religious or theological system which would explain the universe as the outcome of two eternally opposed and coexisting principles, conceived as good and evil, light and darkness, or some other form of conflicting powers. We find this theory widely prevalent in the East, and especially in Persia, for several centuries before the Christian Era. The Zend-Avesta, ascribed to Zoroaster, who probably lived in the sixth century B.C. and is supposed to be the founder or reformer of the Medo-Persian religion, explains the world as the outcome of the struggle between Ormuzd and Ahriman. Ormuzd is infinite light, supreme wisdom, and the author of all good; Ahriman is the principle of darkness and of all evil. In the third century after Christ, Manes, for a time a convert to Christianity, developed a form of Gnosticism, subsequently styled Manichaeism, in which he sought to fuse some of the elements of the Christian religion with the dualistic creed of Zoroastrianism (see MANICHAEISM and ZOROASTER). Christian philosophy, expounded with minor differences by theologians and philosophers from St. Augustine downwards, holds generally that physical evil is the result of the necessary limitations of finite created beings, and that moral evil, which alone is evil in the true sense, is a consequence of the creation of beings possessed of free wills and is tolerated by God. Both physical and moral evil are to be conceived as some form of privation or defect of being, not as positive entity. Their existence is thus not irreconcilable with the doctrine of theistic monism.Second, the term dualism is employed in opposition to monism, to signify the ordinary view that the existing universe contains two radically distinct kinds of being or substance -- matter and spirit, body and mind. This is the most frequent use of the name in modern philosophy, where it is commonly contrasted with monism. But it should not be forgotten that dualism in this sense is quite reconcilable with a monistic origin of all things. The theistic doctrine of creation gives a monistic account of the universe in this sense. Dualism is thus opposed to both materialism and idealism. Idealism, however, of the Berkeleyan type, which maintains the existence of a multitude of distinct substantial minds, may along with dualism, be described as pluralism.
[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 02-04-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by crashfrog, posted 01-29-2004 2:22 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Dilyias
Member (Idle past 1366 days)
Posts: 21
From: Minnesota
Joined: 10-02-2003


Message 99 of 591 (84744)
02-09-2004 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
01-24-2004 11:59 PM


"The fact of Jesus and Satan is not a fact. It is a Belief. Now...what if this belief were real?
1) People known as Christians would be made out to look as ignorant and stupid as possible. Much of it would be their own fault, for they would try and live as believers and as worldly people at the same time.
2) Other religions would appear tranquil and quiet. Satan would have no need to mess with them...."
I've got a couple to add:
9) Christians could actually talk to Jesus and know the correct way to interpret the Bible instead of just guessing and arguinging amoungst themselves.
And the #1 thing:
There would not be all be all these little denominations - there would be one true church , since God/Jesus would be real and would communicate with them his purposes and laws and how to correctly interpret the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 01-24-2004 11:59 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 02-09-2004 4:31 PM Dilyias has replied
 Message 101 by Angeldust, posted 02-09-2004 8:21 PM Dilyias has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 100 of 591 (84793)
02-09-2004 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Dilyias
02-09-2004 2:39 PM


Bravo! I like your response!
I came back to this post which I started a few weeks ago and I saw your additions, Dilyias. You sound like a Christian Believer to me! Talk to Jesus....wow! What a concept! You made my day!
I think that there IS one church,Dilyias. The Bride Of Christ. It is one body of believers from all denominations. It even includes people from other religions who have found a place for Jesus in their heart!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Dilyias, posted 02-09-2004 2:39 PM Dilyias has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Dilyias, posted 02-10-2004 1:54 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Angeldust
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 591 (84838)
02-09-2004 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Dilyias
02-09-2004 2:39 PM


I will have to whole heartedly agree with Phatboy on this one. There is one church. Denominational walls mean nothing to God and very little to most of the younger generation.
There are a lot of things that the churches disagree on, but that's our own fault. Not God's. Sometimes we as humans are so bound by tradition, or pride, or whatever that we aren't listening. I'm including myself in here! What it really comes down to is that there are certain things that you have to believe in order to be a Christian and the rest doesn't matter in the long run anyway.
It doesn't matter if your a presbyterian, baptist, pentecostal, catholic, or whatever other denomination you want to throw in there. If you can believe in your heart and proclaim that Jesus is Lord, your part of the invisible church. That's the church that's the bride of Christ. Many people who sit in the pews week after week don't belong to it and many people who you never see there do!!
Maybe I'm biased because I'm 22 and have attended 5 different denominations even though I wasn't Christian for most of my life, or maybe it's a local thing,(I hope not) but the denominational walls are really beginning to crumble. Maybe it's part of the pluses of the postmodern movement, but nobody I know my age cares what denomination you attend. I attend a denominational Bible College for a denomination that I have never attended with students who attend 5 or 6 different churches (it's a small college).
When it all comes down to it, it doesn't matter if your a pre- post- or ammillenialist, a Pentecostal or a cessationist, a contemporary or orthodox worshiper. We've all got some of it wrong because we all allow ourselves to get in the way.
What matters is that we begin to move in unity, and let what has kept us apart in the past go. I will probably never find someone who agrees with all my theology, but it doesn't matter. They are all my brothers and sisters in Christ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Dilyias, posted 02-09-2004 2:39 PM Dilyias has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Dilyias, posted 02-10-2004 1:49 AM Angeldust has not replied

  
Dilyias
Member (Idle past 1366 days)
Posts: 21
From: Minnesota
Joined: 10-02-2003


Message 102 of 591 (84910)
02-10-2004 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Angeldust
02-09-2004 8:21 PM


Yes, I understand that from a certain point, as long as one believes in Jesus Christ they are part of the "church" and saved. (Assuming that Christianity is correct in this matter).
First off, I want to say that these are just my observations, and biased opinions. I'm sure there are many different ways to look at the fact that Christians disagree with each other about parts of the Bible.
However, the point I was making is that it is very curious why there are so many different interpretations of the Bible , each from a denomination claiming that their interpretation is from God and correct.
What I find interesting is when Christians debate other Christians of a slightly different faith about the different characteristics and rules of God. I feel like - 'ARG, Just all sit together and pray and ask God Himself for the answer!' If one were able to communicate
with him in a more accurate manner than we shouldn't see this, no?
In the Old Testament, God would taunt other god's and challenge them to test's. When the false god would not respond, God's people would jeer and say "perhaps he is sleeping!". It is too bad we can't try the same thing against the Biblical God. I guess it "wouldn't be fair" for some reason.
Yes, many agree on the "main" or "important parts" to some degree, but the fact that disagreements exist on what God wants or means (in which case someone is wrong) makes it possible that the core beliefs in Christianity could also be wrong (or untrue).
e.g. That Jesus came to die for our sins, etc.
From an "outsider's" perspective, a bunch of people all claiming to have a relationship with the same God, yet disagreeing on what they think God likes or does just looks like a bunch of people coming up with their own ideas and convincing themselves it is from a higher source. Thus, there is no evidence that a single God is giving anyone answers.
Now if people from all over were communicated something specific from God, without even reading or knowing about the Bible - THAT would be powerful proof that God (and Jesus) were real. Maybe it's just a dream of mine that will never come true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Angeldust, posted 02-09-2004 8:21 PM Angeldust has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 02-28-2004 2:27 AM Dilyias has not replied

  
Dilyias
Member (Idle past 1366 days)
Posts: 21
From: Minnesota
Joined: 10-02-2003


Message 103 of 591 (84911)
02-10-2004 1:54 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Phat
02-09-2004 4:31 PM


Re: Bravo! I like your response!
A sarcastic response to my sarcastic post. I guess I deserve it!
"It even includes people from other religions who have found a place for Jesus in their heart!"
Technically, did Jesus ever ask people to have him in their heart, or is this just a metaphor for "believing what Jesus did for me"? I believe a lot of what Jesus (and the Buddha, etc..) taught. A lot of it makes sense to me and is similar to my outlook on life.
I do not believe in Hell, (or that Jesus' purpose for coming was to save us from Hell) however, so I'm technically not a Christian. I believe he came to show them a better way. Using their own religion he tried to do away with the outward appearence of things and teach them that what really mattered was what was inside. Their thoughts, feelings. If they followed these simple rules they would have peace and have the kingdom of God in them. Then after he died it all was twisted and he eventually became a "God", killed for the sins of all. Again, just my observations. I could be wrong, I could be right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 02-09-2004 4:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 104 of 591 (88124)
02-23-2004 10:50 AM


There is no doubt JC was "real" but was he God incarnate?
I too believe that JC manifested God as did Budda and every other universal messenger of Gods message. It was not until the writting of the Gospel of John that the author began to fully deify JC as "God" himself. The kingdom of God is within you.
To me that means we all manifest God. Like an ocean is to God what waves are to mankind and the universe. Every wave is different but all come from the source, and all return back to the source. Just a thought.

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Brian, posted 02-25-2004 9:53 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 105 of 591 (88565)
02-25-2004 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by 1.61803
02-23-2004 10:50 AM


Re: There is no doubt JC was
Hi,
I too believe that JC manifested God as did Budda and every other universal messenger of Gods message.
Are you saying that Buddha was a messenger of the God of the Bible?
Are you aware of any of the original Buddha's teachings, especially the ones about nothing being eternal and that gods are lesser beings that humans?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by 1.61803, posted 02-23-2004 10:50 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by 1.61803, posted 02-25-2004 10:58 AM Brian has replied
 Message 108 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 02-27-2004 3:09 PM Brian has replied

  
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