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Author | Topic: Logical fallicies in the bible | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Brian Member (Idle past 4959 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hi Phil,
To let you know I am working on a reply, post it soon. Brian
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Prozacman Inactive Member |
Holy Cow! (no, I'm not a Hindu) Thanks Drbill for setting me straight about the reply button. Well, accidents happen. Waiting patiently for your input to my last post. PM
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doctrbill Member (Idle past 2764 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
Prozacman writes:
Other way 'round actually.
I am aware that YHWH is given for GOD. I think that everywhere we find a reference to "the LORD", we are also identifying YHWH, but there are references to "the Lord" with lower case letters, and I don't know if he is the same as "the LORD".
When given as 'Lord', the Hebrew word is adonai. There may indeed be places where it refers to YHWH. I believe the context would have to be consulted in each case.
I as well as you would like some clarification on this. I do know that when the author(s) of Genesis, Exodus, etc. use the word "God", as in, "In the beginning when God created..."(NRSV), the Hebrew word for God is "Elohim" which is a plural word form meaning "the Gods".
Yes. From a feminine noun; suggesting that it is an artifact of an earlier religion which worshipped goddesses. In fact, elohim is twice translated "goddess" in the King James Version!
However, see the notes to page 3 of Gen.1(NRSV), where the "us", and "our" of "Let us make mankind in our image", is interpreted as a heavenly court of divine beings.
I don't have a copy of the NRSV but I am not suprised at the comment.
I was taught that the words us and our refer to the trinitarian godhead, but now I think these words are a clue to how seperate gods were worshipped and how thier attributes were combined over time into the single god YHWH, although I can't prove this at the moment. I believe more research is in order, and I would appreciate any input on the matter.
My sources have proved inadequate to the task of pinning down these terms as used in the creation narratives. Both Young and Strong appear to be evasive on the subject. I can, for the moment, only assume that us and we in these instances are equivalent in origin and meaning to the same words used elsewhere in scripture. The footnote you mention, in the NRSV is, I believe, leading to the truth but leaves a lot unsaid. I consulted a Jewish interpretation which provides an additional clue to the mystery. Here is what they say, quote:The Hebrew personal pronouns, 'I' (anoki, ani); and 'us' or 'we' (anachna, anachnu, anu); all appear to be derived from the same root, but neither Young nor Strong reveal what that root may be. Perhaps they were not aware of it when they produced their otherwise marvelously helpful tomes. What one may learn from other sources, which were just being discovered and deciphered when Young and Strong published, is most revealing, I think. The Sumerian people (with whom Abram lived) held a creation myth in which ANU, the self-made creator-god, created lesser gods who in turn created man. These lesser gods were called "ANNUNAKI" (roughly translated Anu's Offspring of Earth) which is generally understood to mean "The Children of An" i.e. "The Children of God." It takes no stretch of the imagination to see how 'annunaki' evolved into such personal pronouns as: 'anachnu', 'anoki', and 'anu'; especially among an arrogant people of Mesopotamian orgin, who considered themselves the chosen people, i.e. "The Children of God." BTW. In the Mesopotamian (Sumerian) myth, the Annunaki were naked and hungry but had no provisional talents, so they created man to grow crops, make clothes, and otherwise serve them. Sound familiar? At any rate, the Sumero-Babylonian origin of the creation myth is increasingly evident. ------------------"I was very unwilling to give up my belief." Charles Darwin
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phil Guest |
Sorry, I forgot to reply to your post, Dan.
Stillborn babies, etc. did not condemn themselves to Hell. I will agree that God does condemn people to Hell. What I was trying to focus on was the fact that we DO have a choice on whether or not we go to Hell. I, unlike some others, am not trying to portray God in any way that is contradictory to the Bible. In other words, my argument was not that "God is all-loving and therefore he does not condemn people to Hell."
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Rei Member (Idle past 7013 days) Posts: 1546 From: Iowa City, IA Joined: |
Then what determines if people go to hell? "If they've been exposed to the knowledge of God and reject it?" Well, despite that contradicting the bible (which in turn contradicts itself....)** Well, if that is your argument, *how exposed*? If a person simply hears, "God is great." once, and that's it, and don't believe? What if someone talks to them for 2 minutes? Half an hours? A week? A year? What about people who have enough of a learning difficulty that they have difficulty comprehending things, but can comprehend to some extent? Are they hellbound if they don't accept? In short, where is the line? And where in the bible to they give this sort of exception to the rule? Or are you just assuming it because God is loving? Read Deuteronomy to learn how God is described. Described as a devouring flame, an angry god. A God who whole-heartedly endoses pillage, a God who says to show no mercy and to kill everyone that is encountered (which would, btw, include women and children). I could go on for a long, long time...
**Works alone, Faith with works, Faith alone? James 2:20-22Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. James 2:24See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone James 2:26For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. Eph 2:8-9For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast. Rom 3:28A man is justified by faith without works. Jam 2:17Faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead Jam 2:24"A man is justified by works and not by faith only Rom 4:2"For if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to glory? Acts 16:30-31"Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (I could go on for a long time...) ------------------"Illuminant light, illuminate me."
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Prozacman Inactive Member |
No, we don't have a choice about heaven or hell Why not? If one's daddy who one had never met, because he left when one was a baby, came up and pointed a gun at one's head, and said, "I'm your daddy, come home with me or I'll shoot you", would anyone except Bruce Lee have a choice??
[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-12-2003]
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6496 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
hehe... woulden't it be more like, your long lost dady told some guy in deepest darkest africa that he was gonna shoot you if you didn't reconginze him as your father. Then he shows up one day and asks you if you recognize him, when you say no, he says well, I told some people so if you ain't heard it tough luck. And then he kills you.
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phil Guest |
I already answered all these questions earlier in this very topic. Also, I do not know what point you are trying to make by quoting all the verses describing faith by works. If you'd like to explain, I'd be happy to reply.
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6496 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
Its a valid point. Some say its only faith, some say a combination. Some say only works.
So the question naturaly arises, by what is a man saved? Faith, works, or both? Yet the Bible is contradictory on the issue. Wouldent you agree?
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phil Guest |
Faith versus works:
Basically, as I understand it, all one needs to "be saved" is faith. However, without works, your faith is dead. A marriage is a good analogy here: If I marry some girl, but then I desert her, we are still married technically (barring the worldly practice of divorce). Our marriage, though, for all practical purposes, is dead.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Do you get into heaven with a dead faith?
And for that matter, if you love somebody with all your heart and devotion, are you married even if no priest has said so? If the answers are "no", and "yes", respectively, then faith has nothing to do with it - it's all works.
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Prozacman Inactive Member |
Actually, I meant this to be a reply to Phil. As I was tought back in that fundamentalist church I ran screaming from, "Saving faith"-the faith that gets us thru the Pearly Gates, is the faith in what Jesus did for us to pay for our debt of sin that we inherited from the Original-Sin of Adam and Eve. According to that doctrine(Original-Sin), Adam & Eve stained all humanity from then on in the sight of God when they listened to the serpent and not to God's warning(Genesis 2:15). God wouldn't allow rebellious humans in his presence(heaven) anymore, therefore he came to earth as a man(Jesus,the trinity,etc.) and died in our place. All we have to do is believe that and we're on our way to heaven, and if we believe that, our lives will be changed("born-again"), and our works will show it; or according to some other christians, our works will become acceptable to God. Anyway, I don't believe in Adam & Eve or "Original-Sin", or faith vs. works anymore. Why not?? Because, in my opinion, it was St. Augustine of Hippo in the 4th century A.D. who came up with the idea of original-sin and Adam & Eve's part in it in the first place; not St. Paul, or any other writers of the N.T. Secondly, it is my opinion that Adam&Eve are poetic/allegorical representations of humankind, and were not two real people. They were mythological constructs on the same level with Heracles and other greek heros'. Thirdly, Humans(the Genus Homo) have been around for at least a million years( but that's another topic anyway), and Genesis was compiled as late as the 2nd century B.C.(footnotes to Genesis; New Oxford Annotated Bible, NRSV). Therefor, as time marches on, I increasingly believe that the whole subject of faith vs. works, and how to get thru the Pearly Gates is meaningless. PM
[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-13-2003] [This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-13-2003] [This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-13-2003] [This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-13-2003]
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Prozacman Inactive Member |
Yaro, I believe you are correct I was a little under the weather yesterday, so I got my ideas mixed around
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phil Guest |
Sorry for the delay once again.
crashfrog writes: Do you get into heaven with a dead faith? Yes, I personally believe that you do. Ephesians 2:8-9 says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. On the other hand, the Bible says that faith without deeds is useless (James 2:17-22). It may seem to be a contradiction, but I think it means that although only faith is necessary for salvation, it is completely useless for anything else without works. In other words, when James says that faith is useless, I think he assumes that his audience (the recipients of his letter) already has faith, meaning they already have salvation.
And for that matter, if you love somebody with all your heart and devotion, are you married even if no priest has said so? No analogy is perfect. The faith:marriage analogy breaks down here. There is no priest who has to officially announce that you have faith in Christ.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Yes, I personally believe that you do. So, now we're in a situation where a corrupt believer who never gave a rat's ass about his fellow man - Gomer Pyle, let's say - gets into Heaven, where the philanthropist atheist does not. How is that fair? Oh, well. It hardly matters to me. There's no requirement for your beliefs to make sense, I suppose.
The faith:marriage analogy breaks down here. There is no priest who has to officially announce that you have faith in Christ. Well, yes. The point was to say that marriage is about works, not the official sanction. A dead marriage is no marriage at all. But apparently you feel that a dead faith is still a faith, though I don't see how that could be.
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