The Deceitfulness of Man

Originally posted by doctrbill:Perhaps because Voodoo Devil worship is simple-minded, and only slightly more so than what you offer to replace it; whilst sound evidence is acquired with great effort and fearless reasoning takes much courage.It maybe simple-minded, but it is far more entertaining than what Christianity has to offer. Christian Priest; "You're an evil sinner and you're going to hell! But god loves you anyways..."Science places the bar very high indeed. Superior knowledge requires exceptional intellect and superlative effort. Delusion and self-deception require none of the above.

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The bar is raised. We are no longer in the Bronze Age.

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Wake up and smell the atomic pile.

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db

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Don't be too sure of that, especially with those who practice compartmentalization between their rational world and their religious one.[This message has been edited by nos482, 10-28-2002]

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Originally posted by nos482:
Don't be too sure of that, especially with those who practice compartmentalization between their rational world and their religious one.

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Point taken.Back at the nut-house we might have called them Schizoid. I vaguely recall my own experience as one who did that (compartmentalized); although it seemed more like adherence to a superior opinion. When I finally woke up, the sleepers in my family figured I'd gone over to the devil. Seems they fear the Devil more than they fear God. Or perhaps they have made a rather great God of the Devil. It is he whom they blame for their human nature. Makes me wonder what a wimp they think God to be.db

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Originally posted by doctrbill:
Point taken.

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Back at the nut-house we might have called them Schizoid. I vaguely recall my own experience as one who did that (compartmentalized); although it seemed more like adherence to a superior opinion. When I finally woke up, the sleepers in my family figured I'd gone over to the devil. Seems they fear the Devil more than they fear God. Or perhaps they have made a rather great God of the Devil. It is he whom they blame for their human nature. Makes me wonder what a wimp they think God to be.

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db

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Or it could just be another case of creating god in their own image?

Philip M. Traynor, DPM, MSBS
Diplomat American Board of Podiatric Medical Specialties in Podiatry and Podiatric Surgery.
Masters Biomedical Science, Barry Univ, Miami
Bachelor of Science, Psychology, Univ of DE
Assoc. of Applied Science Elect Eng Techn., Craven Cmty College, NC.** Do you have any degrees from Patriot University ?------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!

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Originally posted by Brian Johnston:
Philip M. Traynor, DPM, MSBS
Diplomat American Board of Podiatric Medical Specialties in Podiatry and Podiatric Surgery.
Masters Biomedical Science, Barry Univ, Miami
Bachelor of Science, Psychology, Univ of DE
Assoc. of Applied Science Elect Eng Techn., Craven Cmty College, NC.

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** Do you have any degrees from Patriot University ?

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Slander away cowboy; look me up, get a life, realize you are not the first deceived by his own follies. We all are. Myself foremost. You have a web browser; surely you can find me in the Yellow Pages in Albertville, AL. Else look me up under Google: "Philip M. Traynor" and start tracking me down. It erroneously lists me at the Guntersville Foot Clinic (5 years ago); my credentials aren't that hot-shot anyway. I flunked out of Marine Corps/Navy flight school in Meridian; drove a garbage truck, a taxi, delivered pizzas, and lots of other non-glamorous pursuits. I'm not an MD, rather a DPM (dentist/chiropodist of the foot). Today, I just cut about 600 toenails at a VA nursing home in Huntsville. Medicare, the plaintiff public, BCBS auditors, OSHA, HIPPA, and the state health department are just a few of my nightmares.My other degrees aren't that hot-shot either. So quit the paranoia; we're all deceived to varying extents, searching for truth, else why are we here?Now to change the subject: I here others repeatedly whining about compartmentalization of empirical vs. metaphysical events.
Now, what's the problem? Is compartmentalization really self-deception or are we over-reacting. Should we compartmentalize our wives and children by your empirical standards. Now the science of our wives (husbands) and children demands special metaphysical considerations. Agree or disagree?Philip

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Originally posted by Philip:

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Originally posted by Brian Johnston:
Philip M. Traynor, DPM, MSBS
Diplomat American Board of Podiatric Medical Specialties in Podiatry and Podiatric Surgery.
Masters Biomedical Science, Barry Univ, Miami
Bachelor of Science, Psychology, Univ of DE
Assoc. of Applied Science Elect Eng Techn., Craven Cmty College, NC.

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** Do you have any degrees from Patriot University ?

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Slander away cowboy; look me up, get a life, realize you are not the first deceived by his own follies. We all are. Myself foremost. You have a web browser; surely you can find me in the Yellow Pages in Albertville, AL. Else look me up under Google: "Philip M. Traynor" and start tracking me down. It erroneously lists me at the Guntersville Foot Clinic (5 years ago); my credentials aren't that hot-shot anyway. I flunked out of Marine Corps/Navy flight school in Meridian; drove a garbage truck, a taxi, delivered pizzas, and lots of other non-glamorous pursuits. I'm not an MD, rather a DPM (dentist/chiropodist of the foot). Today, I just cut about 600 toenails at a VA nursing home in Huntsville. Medicare, the plaintiff public, BCBS auditors, OSHA, HIPPA, and the state health department are just a few of my nightmares.

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My other degrees aren't that hot-shot either. So quit the paranoia; we're all deceived to varying extents, searching for truth, else why are we here?

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Now to change the subject: I here others repeatedly whining about compartmentalization of empirical vs. metaphysical events.
Now, what's the problem? Is compartmentalization really self-deception or are we over-reacting. Should we compartmentalize our wives and children by your empirical standards. Now the science of our wives (husbands) and children demands special metaphysical considerations. Agree or disagree?

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Philip

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**I'll take the answer to my question to be a 'no' then.Bria------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!

Originally posted by Philip:Now to change the subject: I here others repeatedly whining about compartmentalization of empirical vs. metaphysical events.
Now, what's the problem? Is compartmentalization really self-deception or are we over-reacting.Yes, it is self-deception where the rational world of science tells you one thing yet one can still believe in the irrational world of religion which tells you the opposite.Should we compartmentalize our wives and children by your empirical standards. Now the science of our wives (husbands) and children demands special metaphysical considerations. Agree or disagree?Non sequitur.BTW, what are "special metaphysical considerations" and how does it relate to the real world?

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Originally posted by nos482:
BTW, what are "special metaphysical considerations" and how does it relate to the real world?

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--In Patriot University terms, special metaphysics might include anything that is not Spock-like in its empirical logic.
Freud, Darwin, David Bowie, Hitler, and a Christ-crucified-risen-from-the-dead-Gospel preacher is just a small sampling of metaphysical entities relating to the real world beyond empirical faith. Again, each makes attempt(s) to manipulate and/or control his environment beyond the outward physical (empirical) one (if there be such a thing).
--Most of us, while cherishing empirical mastery(s) in our youth, fall short of the glory of empiricism.--Empiricism is perhaps the 'trees without the forest'. Many APRIORI fallacies are invoked, especially when using empiricism to support the ToE.
--Metaphysics is perhaps is the 'forest SANS the trees'. Many critical details are erroneously hand-waved to deduct the APRIORI Alpha and Omega event(s).--Consider the deceitfulness of our human nature added to the above. What a large margin of error you see in the YEC and I see in the Evo. Thus we are ridiculous idiots, one to another. Yet we hard-headedly continue in our deceitfulness until it perpetrates as fraud on an unsuspecting public.--Today I supped (dinner) with a bunch of Alzheimer's residents in the Nursing Home of Arab. Trust me, these persons relate SANS empiricism. Many did, however, relate strongly via poetics, song, jests, TLC, violence, and other curious arts.Philip

Originally posted by Philip:--In Patriot University terms, special metaphysics might include anything that is not Spock-like in its empirical logic.Isn't PU one of those fundamentalist training grounds?Freud, Darwin, David Bowie, Hitler, and a Christ-crucified-risen-from-the-dead-Gospel preacher is just a small sampling of metaphysical entities relating to the real world beyond empirical faith. Again, each makes attempt(s) to manipulate and/or control his environment beyond the outward physical (empirical) one (if there be such a thing).David Bowie, Hitler?--Most of us, while cherishing empirical mastery(s) in our youth, fall short of the glory of empiricism.

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--Empiricism is perhaps the 'trees without the forest'. Many APRIORI fallacies are invoked, especially when using empiricism to support the ToE.
--Metaphysics is perhaps is the 'forest SANS the trees'. Many critical details are erroneously hand-waved to deduct the APRIORI Alpha and Omega event(s).

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--Consider the deceitfulness of our human nature added to the above. What a large margin of error you see in the YEC and I see in the Evo. Thus we are ridiculous idiots, one to another. Yet we hard-headedly continue in our deceitfulness until it perpetrates as fraud on an unsuspecting public.What you are saying doesn't have any meaning. It is no different than the claptrap New Agers spout.[This message has been edited by nos482, 11-06-2002]

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Originally posted by nos482:
Isn't PU one of those fundamentalist training grounds?

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Yup.Oh, and good luck with Phillip and his metaphysical entities. Some of this post is a reply to him.BTW, I like this part.

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--In Patriot University terms, special metaphysics might include anything that is not Spock-like in its empirical logic.

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What does this mean, Phillip? A bunch of rad dudes hang with their peeps and make stuff up?

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David Bowie, Hitler?

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Interesting juxtaposition eh? Especially when you add Freud, Darwin and Jesus. I am not sure what Phillip intends though. hmmmm..... I need to go pop The Man Who Sold the World into the CD player. Maybe that will help.

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Phillip:--Most of us, while cherishing empirical mastery(s) in our youth, fall short of the glory of empiricism.

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huh ???????

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--Empiricism is perhaps the 'trees without the forest'. Many APRIORI fallacies are invoked, especially when using empiricism to support the ToE.

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Your view has no a priori fallacies? If so, please explain. He who has the fewest assumptions wins.

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--Metaphysics is perhaps is the 'forest SANS the trees'. Many critical details are erroneously hand-waved to deduct the APRIORI Alpha and Omega event(s).

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This means... ?

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Thus we are ridiculous idiots, one to another.

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We can solve this by considering the source of knowledge. What is the source of human knowledge?------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com[This message has been edited by John, 11-06-2002]

We can solve this by considering the source of knowledge. What is the source of human knowledge?I'll take a stab at this. Would that be humans?

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Originally posted by nos482:
We can solve this by considering the source of knowledge. What is the source of human knowledge?

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I'll take a stab at this. Would that be humans?

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I was thinking more primal than that actually. I'd bet that you are refering to derived knowledge-- complex theories like evolution and quantum mechanics. I am talking about more basic knowledge like "What does it mean to say something is 'red'?" Where do we get the idea of 'red'? That sort of thing.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

Originally posted by John:I was thinking more primal than that actually. I'd bet that you are refering to derived knowledge-- complex theories like evolution and quantum mechanics. I am talking about more basic knowledge like "What does it mean to say something is 'red'?" Where do we get the idea of 'red'? That sort of thing.

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Still from humans. In the slow process of language developement certain concept came about by agree upon interpretations. But most likely the first one to name something and had the biggest club made it stick. "Whack, blood red, ug!..." Though, we still have many different languages which describe the same thing in different ways. Am I starting to sound like Brad? [This message has been edited by nos482, 11-06-2002]

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Originally posted by nos482:
Still from humans.

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Even more primal than that-- from experience, from perception.

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In the slow process of language developement certain concept came about by agree upon interpretations.

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I am betting that Phillip will argue something Platonic.

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Am I starting to sound like Brad?

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Nope, but you are giving an answer that I doubt will come from Phillip.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

Originally posted by John:Even more primal than that-- from experience, from perception.Depends on how you define human.