Ignorance and Arrogance

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Originally posted by no2creation:
However, I CAN NOT decide or choose my beliefs! Do you decide to believe in Creationism, Evolution, or God. Or is your belief simply a result of all the information you have read?

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It just occured to me that their belief is not just the result of all the information they have recieved, rather it is held due to early indoctrination contrary to the bulk of information recieved....They are making a choice to believe rather than honestly look at the information they possess before adopting a position....Probably why they insist that belief is a matter of choice....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by joz:
[b] It just occured to me that their belief is not just the result of all the information they have recieved, rather it is held due to early indoctrination contrary to the bulk of information recieved.... [/QUOTE][/b]
Isn't this brainwashing?

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They are making a choice to believe rather than honestly look at the information they possess before adopting a position....

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Probably why they insist that belief is a matter of choice....

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This would be a 'closed mind' situation. Not open to new information because it may contradict old information.I can't figure it out. Why anyone would tell me that I have to choose to believe in something that just doesn't register in my mind. Scare tactics are used 99% of the time, yet the bible says NOT to fear God. Many members on EVCFORUM.NET, write posts indicating that we should choose to accept and believe in God or unspeekable acts will be carried out on our souls for all eternity...How many people believe in God because they fear going to hell if they don't?

If there is a God, then I hope he would accept me into heaven based on my actions here on earth not by what I believe in.
--Well why would he grant you eternal life if you wont grant him your frivalous physical life? that puts things in perspective for me.I used to believe in God when I was younger, the only problem is that I didn't feel very strong about it. When I grew older, I wasn't sure if I was a believer.
-- it was the opposite for me, i didnt have any faith whatsoever because my parents lied to me every so often. then i started goin go to youth groups and church because i was willing to let Jesus be part of my life and i want him to and he is.It was the study of the Christian Faith that turned me away from God. Statements that people are going to hell because they don't believe in God, then I thought "Gee, do I really believe in God? If not then am I going to hell? Also, if I don't really believe, then I'm committing a sin by lieing to everyone else and portraying myself as a believer in God." I find more satisfaction in being honest with everyone and truthful to myself, then pretending I believe in something that doesn't exist.
--- Theyre are some things that are very blunt but thats how it works and you dont have to live up to whatever backwards standards society has at the time. You were meant to make your creator happy but you could never do that because you sin. So Jesus saw that we all could be very good people and he loved us so much that he bared all of our sins for us. You'll never know for sure if Jesus exists but thats what having faith is about, you are able to commit yourself to him without being pushed along by earthly means.------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi

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[This message has been edited by KingPenguin, 03-13-2002]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KingPenguin:
[B]If there is a God, then I hope he would accept me into heaven based on my actions here on earth not by what I believe in.
--Well why would he grant you eternal life if you wont grant him your frivalous physical life? that puts things in perspective for me.[/QUOTE]My "physical life", as you put it, is anything but frivolous! My actions, every day, have consequences for the Earth, the people I come into contact with and some that I don't, future people yet to be born, etc. My actions are of immense importance to me, as an Agnostic, because this life is probably it, so I want to do right by everything and everyone. I do right because it is right and honorable.

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Originally posted by schrafinator:
My "physical life", as you put it, is anything but frivolous! My actions, every day, have consequences for the Earth, the people I come into contact with and some that I don't, future people yet to be born, etc. My actions are of immense importance to me, as an Agnostic, because this life is probably it, so I want to do right by everything and everyone. I do right because it is right and honorable.

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whats seventy years compared to all eternity? nothing.
Your actions are very important and affect how well you can influence people and get them to understand your side of the story. If your a rude selfish crybaby drunken hooligan no ones going to listen to you or hold any credit to your word.------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi

[QUOTE]Originally posted by schrafinator:
[B]Over the years, since I have been engaging in these debates and discussions, I have noticed a pattern among Creationists.I have noticed that the Creationists who are the most uninformed about Biology, Geology, Physics, and Science in general, are often the most arrogant and condescending in their manner and statements.So why is it that these Creationists often accuse scientists of being "know-it-alls"? Is it projection?The study of science has taught me to be quite sure I can back up what I say before I say it. If anything, I realize my limitations and also realize that there is a GREAT deal that I don't know. It has also taught me that I must accept good evidence if it contradicts what I previously thought was true about nature. It has taught me to know what constitutes "good evidence". Lastly, it has taught me that humans are prone to many thought errors and biases which are hard-wired into us, and that the controls of the scientific method are what makes all of science possible.The practice of critical thinking and logic has taught me to think things through, and to not accept anything on face value, but to require evidence.---This topic is clearly painting the "Creationists" with the proverbial broad brush. Although there are a few "kooky" / arrogant Creationists that post on this Board (I won't name names to protect the innocent), there certainly isn't a lack of non-creationists that possess the very same qualities. "The practice of critical thinking and logic has taught me to think things through" and has lead me to my belief in a Supreme Creator of life (universally and generically speaking) and mankind, God.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by leekim:
[b]

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Originally posted by schrafinator:
Over the years, since I have been engaging in these debates and discussions, I have noticed a pattern among Creationists.

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I have noticed that the Creationists who are the most uninformed about Biology, Geology, Physics, and Science in general, are often the most arrogant and condescending in their manner and statements.

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So why is it that these Creationists often accuse scientists of being "know-it-alls"? Is it projection?

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The study of science has taught me to be quite sure I can back up what I say before I say it. If anything, I realize my limitations and also realize that there is a GREAT deal that I don't know. It has also taught me that I must accept good evidence if it contradicts what I previously thought was true about nature. It has taught me to know what constitutes "good evidence". Lastly, it has taught me that humans are prone to many thought errors and biases which are hard-wired into us, and that the controls of the scientific method are what makes all of science possible.

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The practice of critical thinking and logic has taught me to think things through, and to not accept anything on face value, but to require evidence.

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---This topic is clearly painting the "Creationists" with the proverbial broad brush. Although there are a few "kooky" / arrogant Creationists that post on this Board (I won't name names to protect the innocent), there certainly isn't a lack of non-creationists that possess the very same qualities. "The practice of critical thinking and logic has taught me to think things through" and has lead me to my belief in a Supreme Creator of life (universally and generically speaking) and mankind, God.

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How do critical thinking skills lead to religious faith?To me, critical thinking and logic are not tools for spiritual enlightenment. Emotions are the basis for faith.Skepticism and critical thinking are all about determining what is natural, not supernatural.

[QUOTE][b]Originally posted by KingPenguin:
N2C:If there is a God, then I hope he would accept me into heaven based on my actions here on earth not by what I believe in.
KP--Well why would he grant you eternal life if you wont grant him your frivalous physical life? that puts things in perspective for me. [/QUOTE][/b]Well if you would open your eyes here, maybe I could get you to understand what it is I'm trying to say!1. I can not choose to believe. Belief IS NOT A CHOICE!!!
2. Why would God judge me for something I can not choose?'Faith' does NOT carry the same meaning as 'Belief'. So do not preach about how I must have faith...bla...bla...bla...bla Because you must believe something exists before you can have faith in that belief!!!If God judges people based on what they believe, then that would be the same as God judgeing someone based on the color of their skin (you can't choose either of them). If you were to grow up in East India, with education in East Indian culture, you wouldn't be a Christian. Otherwise, how is it that many cultures stay pure and un-tainted for so many generations if they could randomly choose their own beliefs. Especially with no prior knowledge of Jesus Christ. [QUOTE][b]
N2C: I used to believe in God when I was younger, the only problem is that I didn't feel very strong about it. When I grew older, I wasn't sure if I was a believer.
KP-- it was the opposite for me, i didnt have any faith whatsoever because my parents lied to me every so often. then i started goin go to youth groups and church because i was willing to let Jesus be part of my life and i want him to and he is. [/QUOTE][/b]You have to understand that belief must come before faith! [QUOTE][b]
N2C: It was the study of the Christian Faith that turned me away from God. Statements that people are going to hell because they don't believe in God, then I thought "Gee, do I really believe in God? If not then am I going to hell? Also, if I don't really believe, then I'm committing a sin by lieing to everyone else and portraying myself as a believer in God." I find more satisfaction in being honest with everyone and truthful to myself, then pretending I believe in something that doesn't exist.
KP--- Theyre are some things that are very blunt but thats how it works and you dont have to live up to whatever backwards standards society has at the time. You were meant to make your creator happy but you could never do that because you sin. So Jesus saw that we all could be very good people and he loved us so much that he bared all of our sins for us. You'll never know for sure if Jesus exists but thats what having faith is about, you are able to commit yourself to him without being pushed along by earthly means. [/QUOTE][/b]Care to share with us a few of those 'backwards standards'. How about the equality of man and woman. Are they created equals? Or is that just a backwards standard in society?My parents are my creators, and yes, I do make them happy! You display ignorance and even arrogance by telling me that I have to choose to believe in God. Yet, you haven't show anyone how believing is by choice.

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:
[b] whats seventy years compared to all eternity? nothing.[/QUOTE]

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The difference is, I know that my actions have consequences and effects.

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You don't know that there is even an "eternity". You have faith that there is, and you feel that there is, but you don't actually know, for sure.

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[QUOTE]Your actions are very important and affect how well you can influence people and get them to understand your side of the story. If your a rude selfish crybaby drunken hooligan no ones going to listen to you or hold any credit to your word.
[/b]

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I am not talking about influencing people today, or getting people to "believe me". I am talking about the fact that how I live my life has effects on other people's lives, and therefore all the people they come into contact with, and so on.If I am kind to people, if I smile at them, if I am helpful, I have a good effect on them, and therefore others. If I am grumpy, negative, hurtful, I have a bad effect on them, and therefore others.Most of us do not live in isolation. When I speak with someone who is always negative about everything, it makes me feel negative, too. That's what I mean by my actions having consequences.I also mean that my choice to not buy fast food, or to buy organic food, or to shop at small businesses instead of corporate chains all have positive effects upon my community, and reach far into the future.I am very close to my niece. What I say to her and teach her will have an effect upon her. She will probably live longer than I, and will probably influence a child in her future. And so on, and so on.All of my actions, for good or ill, reach far into the future.

I just discovered this Glenn Morton production at:
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/feb02.htmlHere it is, in its entirety:

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Morton's Demon
Post of the Month: February 2002
by Glenn Morton

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Maxwell suggested a famous demon which could violate the laws of thermodynamics. The demon, sitting between two rooms, controls a gate between the two rooms. When the demon sees a speedy molecule coming his way (from room A), he opens the gate and lets the speedy molecule leave the room and when he sees a slow molecule coming at the gate (from room A), he holds it closed. Oppositely, when he sees a speedy molecule coming at the gate from room B he closes the gate but when he sees a slow molecule from room B coming toward the gate he opens it. In this way, the demon segregates the fast moving molecules into one room from the slow ones in the other. Since temperature of a gas is related to the velocity of the molecules, the demon would increase the temperature of room B and cool room A without any expenditure of energy. And since a temperature difference can be used to create useful work, the demon would create a perpetual motion machine.

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Maxwell's demon was shown to fail by Szilard who showed that the demon needed to use light (and expend energy) to determine a fast molecule from a slow one. This energy spent to collect information meant that the demon couldn't violate the 2nd law.

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The reason I mention this is because I realized tonight that the YECs have a demon of their own. In a conversation with a YEC, I mentioned certain problems which he needed to address. Instead of addressing them, he claimed that he didn't have time to do the research. With other YECs, I have found that this is not the case (like with sds@mp3.com who refused my offer to discuss the existence of the geologic column by stating "It's on my short list of topics to pursue here. It's not up next, but perhaps before too long." Message-ID: a3bv4t$v2m$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net ) And with other YECs, they claim lack of expertise to evaluate the argument and thus won't make a judgment about the validity of the criticism. Still other YECs refuse to read things that might disagree with them.

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Thus was born the realization that there is a dangerous demon on the loose. When I was a YEC, I had a demon that did similar things for me that Maxwell's demon did for thermodynamics. Morton's demon was a demon who sat at the gate of my sensory input apparatus and if and when he saw supportive evidence coming in, he opened the gate. But if he saw contradictory data coming in, he closed the gate. In this way, the demon allowed me to believe that I was right and to avoid any nasty contradictory data. Fortunately, I eventually realized that the demon was there and began to open the gate when he wasn't looking.

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However, my conversations have made me aware that each YEC is a victim of my demon. Morton's demon makes it possible for a person to have his own set of private facts which others are not privy to, allowing the YEC to construct a theory which is perfectly supported by the facts which the demon lets through the gate. And since these are the only facts known to the victim, he feels in his heart that he has explained everything. Indeed, the demon makes people feel morally superior and more knowledgeable than others.

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The demon makes its victim feel very comfortable as there is no contradictory data in view. The demon is better than a set of rose colored glasses. The demon's victim does not understand why everyone else doesn't fall down and accept the victim's views. After all, the world is thought to be as the victim sees it and the demon doesn't let through the gate the knowledge that others don't see the same thing. Because of this, the victim assumes that everyone else is biased, or holding those views so that they can keep their job, or, in an even more devious attack by my demon, they think that their opponents are actually demon possessed themselves or sons of Satan. This is a devious demon!

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He can make people think that the geologic column doesn't exist even if one posts examples on the internet. He can make people believe that radioactive dating doesn't work even if you show them comparisons of tree rings compared to radiocarbon dating. He can make people ignore layer after layer of footprints and burrows in the geologic column (see http://www.flash.net/~mortongr/burrow.jpg ) and believe that burrowing can occur and animals can walk around unimpeded during a global flood. He can make people think that the sun is shrinking, that the stars are all within 6000 light years of the earth, or that God made pictures in that light of events which never happened. He can make people believe that fossils aren't the remains of animals and are 'petrifactions' placed there by the devil. He can make people ignore modern measurements of continental motion, stellar formation, or biological speciation. He can make people believe that 75,000 feet of sediment over an area 200 by 100 miles can be deposited in a few hundred years, and he can make people believe that Noah trained animals to poop into buckets on command. He can make people deny transitional forms which have traits clearly halfway between two groups. This is a dangerous demon.

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But one thing that those unaffected by this demon don't understand is that the victim is not lying about the data. The demon only lets his victim see what the demon wants him to see and thus the victim, whose sensory input is horribly askew, feels that he is totally honest about the data. The victim doesn't know that he is the host to an evil parasite and indeed many of their opponents don't know that as well since the demon is smart enough to be too small to be seen.

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But unlike Maxwell's demon, Morton's demon doesn't expend any energy--he gets his victim to expend it for him. He can get his victim to expend massive amounts of intellectual energy figuring out how to convince the world that they are wrong. The victim will spend hours reading supportive books or searching through scientific literature noting only those portions which support the YEC position. And the victim will spend lots of energy trying to convince others to come see things the way they do. Thus, the demon gets its victims to spend energy to help it spread the infection.

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The demon drives his victim to go to YEC conventions so that the demon can rest. By making his victim be with those equally afflicted, the demon doesn't have to shut the door or even be watchful. This is because it allows the demon time to rest when all that is in the room is supportive data. For the victim, there is comfort in numbers even if they are few.

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Those who try to help the poor victims escape the ravages of Morton's demon wear themselves out typing e-mails explaining data and facts which never get through the demon's gate. After years of weariness, the philanthropic individual dies of fatigue. This is oh so devilish a situation!

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MooseAdded by edit: Talk.Origins "Post of the Month" main index page:
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/default.htm------------------
BS degree, geology, '83
Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe

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[This message has been edited by minnemooseus, 03-21-2002]

It's only 9 hours since I posted the previous message, and already I think it needs bumping to the top! (I just read one of TrueCreation's replys at another topic)Moose------------------
BS degree, geology, '83
Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe

Pretty slow around here - Time to bump Glenn Morton's commentary (message 58) to the top (again).Moose------------------
BS degree, geology, '83
Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe

Found another Talk.Origins "Post of the Month" that I think deserves special attention:Letter to a Pastor
Post of the Month: May 2000
by Kenneth Kirkseyat:
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/may00.htmlMoose------------------
BS degree, geology, '83
Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe

The difference is, I know that my actions have consequences and effects.
-- i know that my actions have consequences and effects as well. If i kill someone that doesnt believe in Jesus im sending them to hell. If i hurt someone emotionally or physically im degrading their opinion of christianity and of me. Im not evil enough to do that to someone.
You don't know that there is even an "eternity". You have faith that there is, and you feel that there is, but you don't actually know, for sure.
--i know that there is eternity for me if i have faith in Jesus. Thats what ive been taught. Of course i dont know for a 100% sure but nothing is %100.
I am not talking about influencing people today, or getting people to "believe me". I am talking about the fact that how I live my life has effects on other people's lives, and therefore all the people they come into contact with, and so on.
---i know your not but im saying that it how i influence a person greatly affects wheter or not theyll believe in Jesus. You are also correct.
If I am kind to people, if I smile at them, if I am helpful, I have a good effect on them, and therefore others. If I am grumpy, negative, hurtful, I have a bad effect on them, and therefore others.
Most of us do not live in isolation. When I speak with someone who is always negative about everything, it makes me feel negative, too. That's what I mean by my actions having consequences.
I also mean that my choice to not buy fast food, or to buy organic food, or to shop at small businesses instead of corporate chains all have positive effects upon my community, and reach far into the future.
I am very close to my niece. What I say to her and teach her will have an effect upon her. She will probably live longer than I, and will probably influence a child in her future. And so on, and so on.
All of my actions, for good or ill, reach far into the future.
--very correct and thats what im saying. From that i can also tell that your a very good person, which is a very good thing.------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi

your probably very lucky im responding to this since the author is obviously being juvenile, maybe you picked it up but whatever. I dont know where his opinions on christians and anyone that doesnt have a 100% faith in science but from what i know christians to be his statement is horribly wrong. Just look at this message boards all of the creationists/YECS/OECS/Christians/Athesit are very willing to read and respond to whatever the topic is. Whenever i go to the library or book store i read as much evolution books as i do creationism books. We most likely wont agree with it until you can provide rock solid proof of it, especially if it contradicts our standing beliefs but you are the same way as well. I think that there is maybe a handful of the evolutionists that can give a response without screaming and whining that creationism cannot be simply because it has no evidence other than the bible, which they are quick to call totally false and unusable. I thank those evolutionists and creationist that are open to arguments and try not to get too agrivated. The lack of evidence for christians is meant as a test of their faith, God loves you and he wants to know that you love him.------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi