Poll: Does Buzsaw Deny Obvious Error?

The inherently circular nature of this thread seems to make it a waste of time!!!!!

.......and the best part of this is that you had to dig back nearly 4 months to find it. I believe it's the same thing you used the last time we went through this, but not sure about that.Yah, admittedly, you might have something there. For one thing, I should've used the word "falsifyible" rather than "disprovable." That got me in hot water in what followed, if I recall.Now madear, if you can come up with enough of this stuff to substantiate Percy's charges that this's my consistent modus operandi, you can stick a feather in your hat.

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In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

this thread is yet another example of exactly the behavior folk are commenting on.In the post where you asked Percy to start a referendum you said: That was a response to Percy saying "but your modus operandi has been to defend incorrect statements ad nauseum".So what you were asking is simply to know what people THINK your behavior is. And so far everyone, everyone, has said that they believe Percy's statement was accurate.Now you can bring up all the unrelated stuff you want as you have done in this thread so far, but here are the FACTS.

1. You asked Percy to survey the membership about their opinions of your behavior.
2. Percy complied.
3. Other members responded saying that they agreed with the assesment.
4. You have the answer to the question you asked.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I agree, Charles, but if you were being charged and maligned as I think I have been, you might also see the need to set the record straight. I have enough concern about my reputation that I refuse to leave these charges unchallenged. Imo, Percy and those who might agree with him should either retract or document with specifics. I had hoped the last time around would have been the last, since nobody showed me to be this alleged notorious bad behavior boy that Percy and Schraf were charging there either. This kind of stuff makes me very uptight and restless.I do hope it'l be a short thead and move on, but if someone has the goods, here's their opportunity to put up and aire them.

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In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

There is this thing that consistently surprises me, here and in other places like this.
It is the insistence that there is somehow something not right in the mental state of the creationist/Christian/or whatever other spiritual/religious belief is espoused.
This from the very people who have everything to lose by their attitude. My support, and the support of others like me, to provide the necessities to continue scientific investigations. Since I'm considered an all-around idiot, then that is what I am all around.
You cannot be accused of logic, because if you had it, you'd find ways to team up with me and those like me. The God of my beliefs has given all things to be learned and known. I'm very happy with everything that has been discovered, is being used for the benefit of mankind. Teamwork - teams of scientists and non-scientists, would enhance all learning venues and move the frontiers at a far greater speed and greater distance.
But you shut me(us) out and keep me at a distance and treat me as an inferior. Well, then, what a man sows, that shall he and does reap.
That's an old law, and true as death and taxes. Passive resistence is not just for the political setting.So, why do you think Christians resist you? Because you have failed to turn them into equal partners. In my humble opinion.Sorry I have not helped you, Buz. I'm always busy dealing with the idiot treatments I get. Let me know if I can ever help you out.

I totally agree that this is not the place to rehash the issues. If you reread my first post here you'll see that I said that myself. That is not to say some discussion as to why certain things were posted were justified or not might be necessary. I'm not gona be a doormat and have spurious stuff wiped on me. I believe we have four yeas for Percy to zero for buz so far. If the count doesn't get too much more than that, I'm not concerned. A few would be predicable and expected. So far not bad......four outa nearly 3000 registered members. I realize many of the registered are likely either not very active or active at all, but we'll see how it comes out. I don't want this to be a popularity contest nor a pitty party. That's why I had hoped for a secret ballot. I assure any who agree with Percy's charges will not be begrudged by me and respect you for forthrighly stepping forth to say so.

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In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

Thanks much, Pecos. Actually I'm not looking for help, pity or anything like that here. What I really want is honest and objective opinion as Percy's charges by any who care to aire them. The tenant of your post, though not on the specifics of the topic is however somewhat relevant to the underlying problem.

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In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

"Everyone, Everyone," i.e. all four of you outa the whole forum membership has me already convicted?? Isn't that a little hasty to be just? This reminds me of the great debate where you had a win all planned out for yourself on a single first post and actually claimed it was so with no need for the GD to go any further. It didn't quite turn out thataway, did it, my friend?So far it's taken goin on page two of our GD and a bunch of pages on the ongoing debate subject with buz still standing in the ring with my GD hypothesis not yet imperically refuted. I don't want to get into specifics about the GD, but the GD discussion thread is still open last I noticed and if you think my debate hypothesis has been imperically debunked you can specify there exactly how and where.This message has been edited by buzsaw, 01-23-2005 23:22 AM

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In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

Anti-intellectualism is I think what you are hinting at.It is a bit on topic because I believe Buz has exhibited a significant degree of this at a number of times.You are right that the split between the two cultures of the US will, if present trends continue, end up harming the quest for knowledge within the US. In the long term this may be the final nail that ensures the long-term decline of the US from it's position of leadership in so many areas. Already it is foreigners who make up too much of it's intellectual base. This will turn sour with the new "security" measures keeping them out.The good thing about the long term endeavour of science to learn is that it is portable. No one can own it. If the US drops the ball it will be picked up (and already is) by others. Fortunately the attitudes of those who hate knowledge are concentrated in the US (and some underdeveloped countries of the middle east).

Buz,My two cents. I regard you as a thoroughly decent person and one who is living a happy productive life with your beliefs. I've not responded to your posts in a while because I find it so infuriating to discuss things with you. This in no way is a condemnation of you as a person. I to some extent enjoy your posts and I think you are an important if often infuriating character on this forum. But I don't think you really get what is involved in logic and evidence based arguments.Religious arguments are often by appeal to authority and to emotional rhetoric or apologetics. I've never gotten an indication from you that you see a difference even though many people here have tried to explain the difference to you. I am convinced of your sincerity but I think you have a blind spot of some sort. It's no big deal other than it gets annoying to argue with you.I think you sincerely believe you have won arguments because you are so convinced of your rightness that you can't see the separate steps of the process and where it has bogged down. I don't expect you to change. But I don't expect to discuss subjects with you either as I found myself getting very frustrated.Still I hope you stick around you are certainly entitled to your viewpoints and I read them from time to time. I like to hear different viewpoints.lfen

I pretty much agree with Ifen's assesment of your debating style, buz. Ned's too.I would add my own observation of your tendency to disappear when someone has you on the ropes with a particular point or fact.I've seen this recently, in the thread about the hammer and the cup embedded in rock. There's also some replies waiting for response in the Coffee House thread "The Horror, The Horror!".All anyone has to do is look at your message profile and see how many "yes's" there are in your "replies await" column.Now, there's no rule that says that you have to reply to anyone, and there is no rule that says it has to be quick. However, I do believe that you specifically deny ducking out on any threads at all, or ignoring points made to you.I do think you have improved in that if you have intentions to reply but will not be able to for a bit, you have been letting people know, and that is excellent.But that is not the solution to the entire problem.

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"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."--Thomas Jefferson

Everyone: Buzz wants examples of his behavior, so let's give him examples. Examples:

1. You made an argument that everyone interpreted as meaning you did not understand that infinite plus 1 equals infinite. You answered that you most certainly did understand this, but continued arguing about the expansion of an infinite space in ways that make clear you still don't understand it.
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2. You said, "Evolution is no more disprovable than the supernatural," and then refused to support the point despite many attempts at cajoling you to do so. See Message 61 for a reference point.

Here's your answer from Message 263: This would be a pretty good answer were it true. Why don't you explain to us how you followed this approach with Carl's hammer? Please try not to unduly strain our credulity.--Percy

Thanks for posting, Ifen. Possibly you need to do some soul searching relative to your statements above. What you need to "soul search" is this:Am I infuriated because buz stubbornly argues from falsehood/error, or am I infuriated because buz debunked my post to which he responded? I suggest you go back to where you and I dialogued and objectively determine if what I said was falacious, showed you to be in error yourself, or was valid argument from another perspective.
I know that if you had proved me in error that I would have been willing to admit that, because I am intellectually honest. An example of this would be helpful. 1. Authority. I assume you mean deity. If you do, are you implying the supernatural has been proven to not exist? If not, don't we creationists have that right, to debate ID creo hypothesis (including science) without being accused of bad posting behavior?
2. Emotional rhetoric: Can you document where my modus operandi is consistently emotionally based?
3. Apologetics: Isn't apologetics what debates are essentially about, apologetics of the ideologies of the individual posting members? Again, go back and take a good look to see if indeed you [b]substantially debunked[/qs] my position/s in the debate/s that infurioriated you. Loosing arguments can be frustrating. I know when I'm right; I know when I'm not sure about things I say, so indicating in the post and I know when I've been proven wrong. I'm not backing down on stuff until you do your job of proving me wrong. I challenge you to document where you have done this. You need to document these allegations when you make them. That you didn't do that here in this post, is indicative as to why you likely failed to convince me of anything or prove me wrong in debate dialog we have engaged in previously. Thanks my friend and peace, but on the one hand you imply that my modus operandi is to debate bogus unsubstantiated stuff and on the other hand, this stuff interests you. Must be you enjoy buz's alleged fiction.

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In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

Hrm. See, I don't know that that's the mature response to take.I don't expect anyone is going to be able to convince you that our impressions are more accurate than your own. I imagine it's quite hopeless. And I think you have the right to percieve your own behavior in the way that seems most truthful to you.Let me pose a question. Have you ever offended someone entirely by mistake? I know that I have, and I suspect that you're the kind of person that does, too. Which would you say is the proper response? An arrogant attitude of condesension, where one informs the offendee that they really "weren't" offended, or that they were wrong to be offended? Or the response where one tries to see what in their statement might have caused offense, apologize for the offense they didn't intend, and work in the future to avoid offense in the same way?That's what I see happening here. You're so convinced that we're slighting you with these things you're supposedly not doing, and maybe you're not doing them. But the consciencious person would be a lot more concerned about how they were so easily mistaken for committing these bad behaviors than you seem to be. We'll never, I predict, be able to convince you of what we say you're doing. Likewise you'll never convince us you're not doing it. The only response that leads anywhere is for you to figure out why we're saying the things we're saying, and what you can do about it. You should be hopeful, after all. It's not like we're saying you do it in every post, or every subject. So it's not you, it's just something you're doing.This message has been edited by crashfrog, 01-24-2005 14:21 AM

Just a brief reply as I've little time this a.m. It's not the stuff per se that interests me. What I find valuable is seeing how different people view the world and find ways to make sense of it and their lives. I think you do a good job of expressing how you see and operate in the world. That is what I appreciate learning.Also what comes across for all our differences is that you are a decent caring person and I find that more important than what you believe or don't believe about infinity, TD, or the supernatural.lfen