God and the human mind

I think this is a good point. I think the way the human brain developes and works predisposes people to religious thinking and feeling, but even more there has been for thousands of years cultural support of religion that reinforces and develops that predisposition.lfen

I thought you might enjoy that suggestion. And it's entirely plausible that infact I am born religious, or with this trait, because it is a bizarrity I wish to understand more. I really would like an answer as to why I am so like this. (born religious) Or simply deem "no God" as a total impossibility.For example, it's like saying to me, "a person is 2d" ie. it's like suggesting the impossible.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 09-04-2004 04:45 PM

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And it's entirely plausible that infact I am born religious, or with this trait, because it is a bizarrity I wish to understand more. I really would like an answer as to why I am so like this. (born religious) Or simply deem "no God" as a total impossibility.

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Hmm, if this is the case, that your religious tendencies are a genetic trait, then it is also probably the case that people are born with a genetic tendency to be secular.If this is the case, and the tendency to be religious or not is simply a heritable trait like any other, then several issues come to mind:1) Why would the very interactive God described in the Bible make it so only a portion of his creation had the proclivity to believe in him? Why would he design his people such that some of us would not be born with the tendency or ability to believe, no matter how much we wanted to?2) Does the idea of "genetic religosity" suggest that religion feelings in people are not indicative of the existence of God, but were just selected for because of their responsiveness to the world around them, or perhaps their greater tendency to stay together in and defend groups because of religious identification?

Some good questions there. To be honest though; I'd rather not defend an evolutionary trait I am not sure evn exists. The thing is though, that I refer to a trait in regard to the natural aspect of my religiosity. I was NOT clear in my post. I am pretty sure that without the trait you could still believe. But to be honest, I only mentioned th trait and said "if you want" - as in, I think it's likely that evolutionists may well just explain the natural religiosity through this trait.And so, I am not really even particularly "in favour" of this religious trait, I just suggest it as what your side might want to explain it as. So, I am trying to be objective, and bring in a possible evolutionistic explanation. I certainly am not sure enough to defend the trait notion, and still have my doubts that it is the answer. But I'm not a total fool that I should give no credence to possible explanations.Another explanation might be that it simply my personality.So, I am not qualified to answer your queries. Sorry for my over-babble.

[quote]My point,my point...Oh yes I need you to tell me if you applied critical thinking to the belief system you accepted. For instance The law of Truly Large Numbers.Confirmation bias.Begging the question.Selective thinking. [quote] What I will tell you is that I applied enough "critical thinking" to obtain what my faith is today to find the final conclusion... Truth.

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"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."Ephesians 5:14

ProphexAnd what would that critical thinking amount to entailing prophex?

Questioning the Bible, God's existance, logically looking at the Bible, but all of this becomes extremely useless, a waste of time... I have found this through taking the difficult route to knowing God, but I have not yet scratched the surface...

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"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."Ephesians 5:14

So glad i just happened to check the forum today, and just happen to have enough time to reply.Mike you seem to be coming round to my way of thinking that evolution could possibly explain a reason for faith. I'm sure in one of my very early messages i gave a possible route for this. Cant remember which author i got it from tho. I think it basically runs along this route tho.Man started off in smaller tribes, with one leader figure, that he would have had a personal relationsip with. Everyone in tribe knew each other, and the strongest, smartest etc was the leader. Now in our much larger society our leader figures are usually far removed from us, but we still have that need for a close leader figure, god seems to slip in quite nicely here. I definitly explained it better last time, but last time i was at home, not in nazca peru, sat in a little internet cafe.For those that are interested things are still going well in s.america, and im home in about 3 weeks, will start posting regularly again around then.Unseul

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Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....
Blessed are those who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
Do unto others before they do unto you.

Ahaha. It's Unseuly unreuly, come to destroy me. I'm chuffed you posted!I was just thinking when typing that previous post, that this very much sounds like the "Unseul Philosophy". While I can see your point, and it might indeed explain the natural aspects of belief, or some of them, - I cannot rule out that infact we are "made" to believe? Though maybe this still doesn't rule out the Unseul philosophy. Maybe it even agrees with it. But I really am speculating on things I don't know that much about. Live long and seek prosperous habitations amongst strange nations! Keep ur baba in check, lest I spank it!

Again, the point?

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"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."Ephesians 5:14

I believed in Christ when I was 3 years old. I went to sunday school and gained knowledge, but something clicked in me when I was about 12. Suddenly everything my pastor was saying made sense, and I realized how much the things of the Bible applied to my life. I began to "love the Word and meditate on it day and night." My faith and application of Bible doctrine got me through a lot of difficulties, and consequently I didn't know how anyone could deny God. I never really questioned the existence of God until about six months ago. I thought the idea of "belief" was such a cop out... I mean, I couldn't comprehend how anyone could NOT know that God exists. It was just so obvious to me. However, participating in this debate site, put all those things I had relied on to the test.Eventually, I came to the point where I thought: either there is a reason and purpose for reality, existence, and the universe, or there is not. I'm not sure cause and effect can "prove" that a supreme being must be the cause of reality, but I sure as heck can't see why anything should exist unless God wanted it to.So I decided that there had to be a reason for everything. And this seems to fit reality to me. Basically, I can't imagine a kernal popping into a universe settling into galaxies and elements in just the right proportion to create life (by whatever means) and create us to be here and experience all the things of life and God. Even if there are an infinite number of universes (which there is no evidence for, but a common explanation for existence without God)... why should there be an infinite number of universes?If you start with the premise that God exists as the creator, and then decide that you want to know him, everything else falls into place. Everything makes sense. Everything has a reason and purpose. Without God, things just don't click with reality as they should.I had a really good conversation with the freshman that just moved in next door to me. He's been an athiest/agnostic his whole life. He participated in a debate site similar to this one and was always on the other side using the same arguments that all athiests and agnostics on here use. He had a drug problem and eventually he went to rehab, and something (he hasn't told me yet) changed his mind about God completely. 6 months ago he accepted Christ, now he's here at a nerdy Christian university, and he agrees with that previous statement: once you humble yourself, choose to believe that God exists, and want to know God, everything just sorta falls into place. He's a totally different person now, inside and out.Whatever arguments exist do not bother me because my faith does not rest on arguments. It is just that: faith. And with it, my eyes are opened to a whole new dimension of reality, that those who eliminate faith from their minds miss out on. Wishful thinking? You can choose to believe so; since I believe God exists, this extra dimension to reality makes perfect sense and I see it everywhere. Without it my heart is cold and dead.I've also had many experiences and heard stories from others that greatly strengthen my faith. Confirmation bias? It doesn't matter. Because God is always working no matter whether he's hidden his will in chance or brought it out in defiance of the laws He holds in place.I believe that the God who created me loves me enough to speak to me. So I've look for his words and found them; and more than that I see evidence of his character and personality in everything. I have read many prophecies of the Messiah and they all fit with the stories of Christ. Could they have been messed with? Sure. But I think the God of the universe is capable of protecting the inspired words of his Holy Spirit as written by men. And it is very much consistent with God's actions to do things discretely.Anyway, I feel like I'm rambling now, still a little tired...

Hangdawg preacheth,

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If you start with the premise that God exists as the creator, and then decide that you want to know him, everything else falls into place. Everything makes sense. Everything has a reason and purpose. Without God, things just don't click with reality as they should.

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This is exactly what Sidelined is questioning. Does everything makes sense, or have you decided that God's work doesn't have to make sense to you? Can you truly grasp the reason and purpose of the universe, or are you just using the term "God" to fill in for the real explanation?I assume you weren't kidding when you mentioned the way the universe seems to have been created just right for us to live and experience God. If there's no evidence for an infinite amount of universes, how do you know what a universe that's not designed for us would have looked? I mean, what about all the God-worshippers that could have lived on the moon, or Mars, or all the other planets? Wouldn't it be at least a better argument for the designed-universe if God-worshipping life had emerged in it quicker than some 15 billion years after it was created?I think Sidelined's questions are valid: how are believers so sure they're not just seeing whatever they want to see, and how much critical thinking is going out the window in the process?regards,
Esteban Hambre

I'm in agreement with Mike and the Brothers here. If I were in class and involved in an experiment, I would use the critical thinking skills that you describe. To use these once I knew that God was/is with me were as innappropriate as using them on you, sidelined. I will admit reading the posts of serious atheists such as are found on Internet Infidels..It is alien thinking for me to question something as obvious as God. I may have felt different before I got saved, however. You have a point. Like Hangdawg, I agree that it does not matter what is said. I know what I know, and I met Him at one point. It is true that I want Him to exist. Perhaps critical thinkers such as yourself would start out prefering that He did NOT exist. I see what you say about examining my faith critically. I guess that my conclusion is that I would be very uncomfortable without it.(Him)This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-08-2004 02:39 PM

Thank you for your reply. I cannot fathom another reason why we exist. Therefore, I strongly believe that God exists. I'm sure that is some kind of logical fallacy: assuming (A) to be true because no other explanation is offered. When I look at life and reality, everything about it teaches me something about God because I believe he has created it and sustains it with a purpose in mind. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Since God is not bound by time, no. This is the argument that some creationists are afraid of. God is the most interesting person imaginable. He does things in every kind of way you can imagine. It seems like the ONLY time he wants to do something the boring old instantaneous miraculous way is to impress his power upon us or to bless us. Even so, he never does the same miracle in the same way twice. When someone puts a puzzle together it makes a recognizable picture. I see a picture that you do not, because you assume there is no picture and never bother to fit the pieces together. Or maybe you tried once but didn't use the picture on the box as a guide to go by, so you put pieces in the wrong places. Seeing no picture forming, you decided there was no picture, no reason, no purpose.On top of seeing a big picture of life and the universe (which you explain away as confirmation bias) I consider the Biblical prophecies, the tesimonies about Christ, and personal encounters with God and angels (and demons) to be evidence in support of my beliefs.

Only if you believe the universe was created for GOD-worshipping life. If the Universe were created for GOD's enjoyment and unrelated to worship, that would not hold.GOD does not depend on our belief or knowledge.GOD is.If humans had never evolved the universe would still go on. As would GOD.There is a certain human centric quality to modern religions, but that is only when viewed through our limited perceptions. We, as humans, may hold no special place and it is only our internal perceptions that might lead anyone to think worshipers are something special.A beaver thinks his den as fine as, and preferable to, any skyscraper.edited to add requisite spelling errorsThis message has been edited by jar, 09-08-2004 05:11 PM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion