Acceptance, Evolutionists vs. Creationists

While reading the topic Why do creationist posters quote so? a comment was made that I felt deserved a full topic discussion. Looking into the mindset of a creationist or a evolutionist is it fair to say that... Just a few questions on the mindsets to stir up the topic.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

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Looking into the mindset of a creationist or a evolutionist is it fair to say that...

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Creationists
Are more willing to accept what they have been told?

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Absolutely.Many religions actively discourage curiosity and the asking of too many "difficult" questions.

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Have a more intense need for purpose?

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Not neccessarily "more intense need" than someone who accepts the evidence for evolution.Your statement seems to imply that those who accept the evidence for evolution do not tend to have purpose in their lives, which is not true at all.

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Need the comfort of a supreme being?

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Absolutely.I would add that Creationists seem to be lazy thinkers; it's easier to take the Bible literally that to try to figure out what the message of a non-literal interpretation of the Bible is, and how it relates to one's life.

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Evolutionists

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Are more of the 'well I want to take it apart and see how it works' type?

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Yes, probably.

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Fear death less?

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I don't know that they fear death less, but I think they are less likely to manage their anxiety by believing in something just to comfort themselves.In short, they are more comfortable not knowing the unknowable.

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Are not willing to believe they are not in control of their life?

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Nobody is in total control of their life.There is no way of telling the difference between "god's hand" and random events.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 05-30-2004 08:49 AM

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Critical thinkers and skeptics don't create answers just to manage their anxiety--Karla McLaren

I don't think they can be called Lazy Thinkers. It ain't easy coming up with some of the theories I've seen them place on the table. You have to admire their courage if not their honesty.Which would you rather tackle, showing the the theory of Gravity actually works or convincing everyone that things really fall up? And that is the magnitude of the task that Creationists set out for themselves every day. They daily try to come up with ways to prove that the evidence that has been accumulated over the last several hundred years is totally wrong.Lazy Thinkers? Hardly. They seem to be some of the most inventive, imaginative minds out there.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I would switch that around, I believe it is the evolutionists trying to convince everyone that things really fall up. We are the ones defying a notion that has been around for thousands of years. We are the minority. As for our scientific data, I've heard people say its all wrong.
I think it is easier to defend something that has been situated into peoples minds. In a way evolutionists are unbrainwashing creationists, which is a difficult thing.

JCPalmer Are you saying creationists have empirical data at their disposal? Please,by all means,let us see the data.

I think that creationists have an intense need to be sure that their view of the world is absolutely the truth. They don't seem to be able to deal with doubt very well. When I left Christianity it was a very hard time for me. I suddenly didn't have an absolute standard by which to judge morality, and that was very difficult for me. Probably the worst part of all was no longer knowing, for a fact, that no matter how bad things get, everything will come out alright in the end. Evil people actually can, and have, "gotten a way with it". Good people do suffer needlessly, and never get justice. It was pretty hard to bear at first.As far as the evolutionist mind set, I don't think it is as easy to characterize, including, as it does, humanists and totalitarians, Christians and atheists, idealists and cynics. I was a devout fundamental Christian first, and then, despite everything, it was evidence and logic that convinced me that the theory of evolution was accurate. I don't feel that it met any needs of mine - in fact, as I said in my previous paragraph, since it led me to atheism it, at first anyway, undermined all my needs that were being met.

If this is acceptance I want no part of this. So far all this has been is belittling creationists as children unable to accept that Santa isn't real!Before you start doing that to me for standing up for them, I'm NOT a creationist or a Bible literalist, I'm just a theist.You guys need to quit pointing fingers.Creationists
Are more willing to accept what they have been told?Not necessarily. If they unquestionably believed what they were originally told they would have no need for apologetics.Have a more intense need for purpose?I wouldn't say need. Again, they're not babies that can't accept that Santa isn't real. I'd say more like they believe they have a purpose, which is more than I can objectively say about most atheists I know (and I have more atheist friends than Christian, so I have room to say this)Need the comfort of a supreme being?
Maybe, or maybe they just happen to believe in one.Evolutionists(Which is stereotypical. I know evolution happened, and I'm still a Christian. This should read atheists and not evolutionists.)Are more of the 'well I want to take it apart and see how it works' type?Usually they're a little more curious. But I do that too and I still believe in God.
Fear death less?From what I've seen, no.
Fear death more?Most of them are pretty uneasy with their opinion that they'll simply cease to exist. So yes.Are not willing to believe they are not in control of their life?Not necessarily. They're willing to believe whatever seems to them to be true. Just because they believe they are in complete control of their lives does not mean they'll refuse to believe anything else.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

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If this is acceptance I want no part of this. So far all this has been is belittling creationists as children unable to accept that Santa isn't real!

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Who said anything about acceptance?I have very little patience for willful ignorance.I think that the Santa analogy is a pretty good one for the worst kind of Creationist.

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If they unquestionably believed what they were originally told they would have no need for apologetics.

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I agree to a point.However, I don't think Creationist apologitics is about exploring problems or questioning anything in an honest way. It's about plugging holes with whatever they can find.

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Again, they're not babies that can't accept that Santa isn't real.

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But, Creationists don't accept the demonstrated reality of nature. They reject and ignore hundreds of years of research by hundreds of thousands of scientists in spite of enormous amounts of evidence just because it makes them uncomfortable.That seems pretty childish to me; living in a fantasy land of denial.

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I'd say more like they believe they have a purpose, which is more than I can objectively say about most atheists I know.

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Creationism is not about having a purpose.Faith or religion might be about having a purpose.Creationism is all about Bible-worship and the abuse and distortion of science to promote religion.

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Need the comfort of a supreme being?
Maybe, or maybe they just happen to believe in one.

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Come on, don't you think that the promise of eternal life in a heavenly paradise is a major part of why a lot of people believe?Doing the right thing because it is a reward unto itself is not stressed in Christianity; you do the right thing becasue God wants you to, and will reward you if you obey and will punish you if you do not.Which is a more mature view?

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Fear death more?

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Most of them are pretty uneasy with their opinion that they'll simply cease to exist. So yes.

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On the surface, you might be right.However, the fact is that believers fear death so much that they accept/manufacture an entire mythology and doctrine designed to avoid death altogether.I now refer you to my sig quote...This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-03-2004 08:39 AM

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Critical thinkers and skeptics don't create answers just to manage their anxiety--Karla McLaren

No. Me and B2P are just believers, not manufacturers. B2P is a wrestler, do you seriously think he fears death? Look at that mean guy go!

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No. Me and B2P are just believers, not manufacturers.

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Notice that I wrote accept/manufacture.You have accepted some of the mythology that you were exposed to in your life.Besides, singe B2P was speaking of Creationists/Christians as a group, so was I.A really big part of Christianity is the idea of an eternal afterlife where you will be rewarded or punished.

It's funny how I am supposed to fear death. It's funny, I have to repeat it a million times a year, I am not afraid of death. If it was just the end - great, I don't even mind being brown bread, it's hell that bothers me. So in any case, I wish it was as simple as "the end". And don't say "Ahh, you believe cos you're frightened of hell" COS that's just as equally an annoying statement. I guess I just don't like having this "he believes for comfort" generalization hanging over me, it's only those who don't have or understand faith that say these things. If anything, I doubt when I need comfort. What parts?

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It's funny how I am supposed to fear death. It's funny, I have to repeat it a million times a year, I am not afraid of death. If it was just the end - great, I don't even mind being brown bread, it's hell that bothers me.

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Isn't "fear of death" and "fear of eternal damnation" pretty closely related?

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So in any case, I wish it was as simple as "the end". And don't say "Ahh, you believe cos you're frightened of hell" COS that's just as equally an annoying statement. I guess I just don't like having this "he believes for comfort" generalization hanging over me, it's only those who don't have or understand faith that say these things. If anything, I doubt when I need comfort.

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I used to have some faith, mike, when I was young. I certainly understood and believed in the heaven/hell thing.Anyway, it's a little too easy for you to fall back upon the "it's a faith thing, you wouldn't understand" escape.If the fear of not knowing what happens to us when we die/fear of death wasn't a huge part of belief in the supernatural, why does some kind of afterlife appear in most of the world religions?I mean, it just makes sense.You have accepted that God exists, that he is the God of the Bible, that christ is his son, etc.

You are assuming that afterlife = fear of death. Now assume that afterlife = reality, that's all I'm doing.You see, fear is the opposite of faith. Faith/belief and fear/doubt, are opposites. On the boat, Christ says "Where is your faith", because his apostles had been overcome with fear. They feared for death, instead of having faith in life.Fear of death doesn't make the believer, faith in life does. He is the life/overcomer, of fear/death.

Okay, first of all sorry about screwing around in the other thread; but I'll be serious here.Schraffinator replies to me: Take a look at the title of the thread, please. In part I agree with this. However, if the boat's sprung a leak you gotta improvise; sometimes you can't just jump ship in shark infested water. Two possibilities other than ignoring stuff on purpose, which is by all means the case with SOME people:1.They take it on faith that what they believe is what happened. Modern science is accurate, but everything, including reality, is tentative. With that in mind, I don't see what's wrong with faith. Now while philosophically that works, if they try to debate science using philosophy(which is pointless because philosophy is so much cooler anyway) then they're just wasting time.2.Another possibility is that they just don't know that certain things work certain ways. They've been given all these copies of 'Darwin on Trial' etc and just figure it doesn't work. Trusting the mentor figures who give this stuff to them is not a bad thing; so this is by no means their fault. What you mentioned is very childish; but not all creationists are like that. In fact I'd say most of them aren't. If that's what creationism is about, isn't that a purpose? Not as many as you might think. Which is a more mature view?The first one obviously. But, according to Christian scripture we are saved through Christ's salvation and not by good deeds(I realize that's kind of weird but this is not the place to debate the moral merit of this part of Christian doctrine) so the good deeds ARE done just because Jesus taught that it was right; something like "do unto others as you would do to me;" and "be a servant to your fellow man".
From my experience, the stuff works, too. No, the fact is NOT that. That's pretty bold of you saying we believe something 'cause we're afraid; I'd like to see you stand through some of the things I've been through.Maybe people believe things for other reasons and not just fear? And I dunno if that's so much avoiding death as it is embracing it? If they don't have to be afraid of death then they aren't afraid of dying, which is death. Agreed. Shoot, critical thinking creates anxiety; especially when you get the courage(or stupidity) to tell others about your non-linear ideas.As such, I now refer you to my sexy signature quote:

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.