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Author | Topic: "THE EXODUS REVEALED" VIDEO | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
NosyNed Member Posts: 9003 From: Canada Joined: |
No, I think it's fine he published the book. What would be nice is detailed peer reviewed papers describing the location, context and nature of the finds.
Those are still secondary to the actual material itself. Until that is there a real conclusion can't be arrived at. I don't really deserve much of an opinion on this. I have only looked at the pictures posted here. To me they are enormously unconvincing. But I maybe missing the best ones. Also I know squat about the time period or the cultures involved. It's just awfully flimsy for making very big statements it seems to me.
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JimSDA Inactive Member |
jar, if you want to focus on "lousy science," focus on how the Mt. Sinai at St. Catherine's mountain was located back in the 4th century -- it has NO physical evidence there, and NO biblical support for the route going to that mountain, and NO crossing site evidence!
You may think that you know how true scientific investigation is "supposed" to happen, but sometimes things just don't happen like we would like them to happen -- but with these discoveries we have looked at the evidence, and the locations, and the biblical account, which is exactly what we are required to do! If at any time we found something that did not fit, or somehow cancelled the discovery, we would look elsewhere -- but after all this time of working with these things we feel very comfortable with what we say we have, which is the actual route of the Exodus with absolutely SOLID EVIDENCE for the crossing site and SOLID EVIDENCE for the real Mt. Sinai in Saudi Arabia! Which is why Lennart Moller wrote his book and made his film!
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6517 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
So he found some wheels. Heck, looks like one wheel.
It looks vaguely similar to a chariot wheel. Ok... So how does that equal the egyptian army? I only see one wheel. Vaguely, under silt. How does that mean exodus=true? Kinda reminds me that movie, "My cousin Vinny". Vinny holds up a picture of a screen door, some trees, bushes, and a number of other things that obstructed the view of the crime sceen. The whitness is forced to admit that maybe his positive ID wasn't so positive. Vinny exclaims "Im done wit dis guy!" Kinda feel like that here I mean seriously, If I go to a lake in england snap a picture of the lake bottom and see what looks like an old sword. Then I write a book about how I found Excalibur, don't you think that would be kind of unconvincing? Im kinda in the same boat with this stuff.
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6517 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
Since we have no proof, I think I will put fourth my own hypothesis of what that wheel thing is there. I get no idea of the scale, so maybe it's small?
In either case if anyone has ever been on a ship Im sure you have seen lots of valve shut off wheeles. Here are a few pics I found to mudy the watter on teh whole cheriot wheel thing:
This one is just to support that they sometimes end up under whatter by one means or another.
Chariot wheel?
Eureka! Four spokes! Chariot wheel?
This one is just uncanny. Maybe they riped it off a chariott? I say it's a valve wheel. Bring it up and lets find out, till then there is nothing you can say to debunk my hypothesis. From the current evidence, it seems valid enugh.
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Nighttrain Member (Idle past 4015 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: |
Go for it,Yaro. Come to think of it,I might have seen a few chariot wheels on the Great Barrier Reef.:-) No bones,though.
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Nighttrain Member (Idle past 4015 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: |
to a lab in Jerusalem to have it analyzed to see whether it was human or animal blood. At first they did not want to do this, thinking I was crazy, but finally consented to do it. After they tested it, they were the ones who went crazy. After reconstituting it and letting it sit for 24 hours, they were astonished at what they saw. The blood was moving and dividing. It was alive. They were astonished at the 24 chromosome count instead of 46 which is normal. They asked me excitedly whose blood that was. I asked if it was animal or human blood. They said it was human, but pressed me as to whose blood it was. I responded that it was the blood of their Messiah. They went crazy, pulling at their hair, pounding on the lab tables and crying out. I had not expected such a response. When they calmed down some, they then asked me who their Messiah was. I told them the blood was that of Jesus of Nazareth whom their ancestors had crucified. This incident showed me what will happen when all the Jews hear the news about the Ark and the blood of Jesus on the Mercy Seat.}
How come biologist Moller didn`t follow up this earth-shattering news into of worrying about a mangy old chariot wheel?
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
I'm not sure if the blood is mentioned in the video but if it isn't it's not on topic here.
Even if it is the blood is just the sort of thing that will go on and on. If this is important to someone please propose a topic. Otherwise do NOT respond on this one here. I know it bears on the credibility of Wyatt but I think there is probably need to agree to disagree on that.
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Arkeologist Inactive Member |
So your first valve wheel is from near Cornwall, England north of Land's end from a local wreck known as "Gun Wreck". Let me know when you find a 5 spoke ancient Egyptian chariot wheel like this 5 spoke valve wheel.
"Four-spoke wheels prevail until near the end of the fifteenth century BC, when six-spoked wheels become the standard, with occasional eight-spoked exceptions" Mary A Littauer and J. Crouwel, "An Egyptian Wheel in Brooklyn," Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, vol. 65 (1979). "Professor Yigael Yadin maintains that during the earlier part of the 18th Dynasty, the Egyptian chariot was `exactly like the Canaanite chariot:' both were constructed of light flexible wood, with leather straps wrapped around the wood to strengthen it, and both utilized wheels with four spokes. In Yadin's eyes, the four-spoked wheel is diagnostic for dating purposes; it is restricted to the early part of the 18th Dynasty. It remained in vogue, he says, until the reign of Thutmoses IV, when `the Egyptian chariot begins to shake off its Canaanite influence and undergo considerable change.' Yadin believes that the eight-spoked wheel, which is seen on the body of Thutmoses IV's chariot, was an experiment by the Egyptian wheelwrights, who, when it proved unsuccessful, settled thereafter for the six-spoked wheel. So widespread and meticulous is the delineation of the number of wheel spokes on chariots depicted on Egyptian monuments that they can be used as a criterion for determining whether the monument is earlier or later than 1400 BC." James K. Hoffmeier, "Observations on the Evolving Chariot Wheel in the 18th Dynasty", Journal of the American Research Center in Egypt (JARCE), no. 13, (1976) Your next photo of another valve wheel is most likely made of iron. In fact the middle "hub" looks rusty. Let me know if you find an Egyptian chariot wheel made of heavy iron. It does have six spokes - I'll give you credit for finally getting that right! Your next example of a sunken Japanese patrol boat "Valve wheel near the port side stern" would make an interesting chariot wheel with "handles" or some type attached to it's rim (see top of crusted valve wheel in that photo). Were those needed for what? Changing the tire? Let me know when you figure out that one. I'm truly interested in this new chariot wheel style you've discovered! The last example of valve wheels comes from the 300 foot, long 1500 ton, Japanese WWII destroyer "Fumizuki" laying off of Udot Island in 90 -125 feet of water. Notice most of these are pretty much heavy iron wheels attacked to the ship. I don't see any resemblance to the artifacts off of Nuweiba, Egypt's coast. I think though I've found a new chariot wheel with an interesting studded traction design on it's outside rims! See below! Maybe it's a royal Assyrian chariot wheel from the 7th century BC which had studded tires. (E. Strommenger, "5000 Years of the Art of Mesopotamia" (New York, 1964), pls. 248 and 253; J. Spruytte, "La Roue Du Char Royal Assyrien", Revue d'Assyriologie et d'Archeologie Orientale, vol. 1, 1994, fig. 8). Probably one of those failed first designs by some 1st year engineering student in the Assyrian College of Chariot Design! (GRIN) Ok Ok I lied. It's a docking wheel from a 14 meter long harbor boat sunk in Dili Harbor in 1999 in East Timor. Anyway, here are three people who have seen good examples of chariot wheels while diving at Ron Wyatt's crossing site: Elfred Lee, an artist, saw one in 80 feet of water while diving with Ron Wyatt in 1988 and drew this sketch. Eric Lembke and a friend of his, Rory (don't have his last name at this moment), from Paradise, CA saw a 4 spoke chariot wheel in December 1998. Here's what Eric said: So I go down 80 ft and five ft from the bottom and all of a sudden I noticed a chariot wheel. It had 6 spokes and I could make out how round it was. [Eric makes a circle with his hand].I could make out the round hub. It was similar to the one we saw in Cairo at King Tutankhamun's exhibit. This message has been edited by Arkeologist, 08-02-2004 03:17 AM
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lfen Member (Idle past 4698 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
quote: AdminNosy, Did you look at that document:Ron Wyatt talk April 6, 1996 It purports to be a transcription of a talk Wyatt gave in Oregon. The talk includes the chariot wheels and exodus stuff and other wild claims. If that transcription is not a hoax and Wyatt said those things it has strong bearing on his credibility. And this raises a question: Is there a transcription of the video available on the net? lfen This message has been edited by lfen, 08-02-2004 03:25 AM
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Nighttrain Member (Idle past 4015 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: |
Sorry,Ned, if I`m stepping out of line, but, as you say, the genuineness of the video would surely depend on the main players, Wyatt and Moller. If they have a history of incredulous statements, why would one want to buy the video and book for more of the same?
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Prince Lucianus Inactive Member |
Archaeologists like myself (I have credentials JimSDA) look four times before we make statements and we're very carefull about it.
quote: And all those wheels show one thing! So, any reasonable archaeologist would not have dared to make a claim about:How old it is. Whose it is. It's ridiculous to state that just by looking at it. Later periods and other (close) civilisations have wheels which have more resemblance then Egyptian chariot wheels from the 18th dynasty. We're lucky to have so much prove, but none (I repeat none) describe or fit this wheel at all!!!! Look, My point hasn't been refuted by Hydarnes. I just pointed something obvious which you both seem to have missed. There's one picture of a tomb (the one concerning chariot making, from whose tomb is that?) which shows what might have been a thicker chariot wheel.This is the complete proof you have. There are no other pictures/preserved wheels. Most of your proof is from a later period and therefore actually of topic. The Mycenean/Syrian wheels I showed have just as much bearing as Thutmosis IV wheels. Now let's have a look at the best coral forms which have been produced.
All of these totally don't resemble the idea of Egyptian chariot wheel making. How do these compare with what we know? They don't. You're simply desperately trying to see things for which you have no proof and present your proof as being totally obvious. Especially the last two wheels (fig 391, 392) don't resemble anything faintly looking like an ancient chariot wheel (maybe Roman). Using a popular scientific publication to prove your point is totally pathetic. Moller would be ashamed of you. Now, I don't have to prove that these wheels look like anything, because I'm not trying to prove they're Egyptian, Thutmose III period chariot wheels. You have to show me that they can't have belonged to any other period or civilistation but Egyptian Thutmose III. Otherwise they can be used to prove other points. Furthermore, you must show me:1- How iron got into the wheel construction. 2- Who's horses/catle the Egyptians used. Especially the last point has been denied a response for pages on end. To ArkeologistAnd "Observations on the Evolving Chariot Wheel in the 18th Dynasty", Journal of the American Research Center in Egypt (JARCE), no. 13, (1976) concludes that before 1400: chariots used 4 spoke wheels made of flexibel wood with leather (like I stated). After 1400 6 spoke wheels (one description of 8 wheels, might be used shortly). Same material used. But, Yadin's argument that 4 spokes were restricted to the beginning of the dynasty is totally wrong. We have the 4 spoked wheels from Tutanchamun's tomb, who is late 18th dynasty. Did he forget those? If he didn't, how good is his dating system. If his dating system is reliable. How come we find all of them in this one place? How come we find so many 8 spoke wheels when they were only experimental? Lucy This message has been edited by Prince Lucianus, 08-02-2004 05:41 AM Bible Search Results "Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses. Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering "Dear God, I understand that if I fail to believe in you, I'll burn in Hell for all eternity. Thanks for being such a good sport about it." -- Dr. Oswald Pratt
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Gwyddyon Inactive Member |
quote: Apparently enough evidence has not been provided to excite academic interest.
quote: It's not that difficult to provide a map of explored sites.
quote: How careless of me. I'd forgotten the toil and anguish that has gone into this idealistic crusade. Run by Wyatt Archaeology, Inc. Which sells books. And videos. Yes, no profit at all to be made from this selfless endeavour.
quote: Those things you don't have time to eleaborate on include some rather wild incidents in which Wyatt claimed to have been the target of archaeological conspiracies perpetrated by other Seventh Day Adventist 'scientists' and the Saudi government to cover up his finds - no, wait, claim them for themselves - no, wait, cover them up. Please, do elaborate on your Hollywood screenplay of an excavation history.
quote: What I'm seeing is that none of that applies to what really needs to be released to gain credibility: maps and diagrams of the finds. We're not talking about artifacts that will be spirited away to a Saudi safehouse. We're talking about simple maps.
quote: I resort to the most basic of assumptions: if it looks like pseudo-science, and smells like a scam, it's somebody taking a page out of the Erich von Daniken textbook of archaaeology. Give me a map of where sites were found, where the team did and did not search, and I'll be willing to lend more credence up front to any claims Moller and the rest make. Until then, it's bad science at best.
quote: I don't care if God himself came down from on high and told the AIA that the find was genuine. I want to know why ANY person who claims to be performing a scientific examination would use a divining rod to support their claims, whether in a primary or secondary role.
quote: Misdirection. Why can't you tell me why the most fundamental archaeological evidence - excavation maps and diagrams - have been either a) not produced by Moller's team or b) kept secret from the scientific community you expect to back Moller. That is, after all the matter I was discussing in the quote you responded to with this rant.
quote: Everything I've 'spouted' has been virtually ignored by your entire response. Where are the maps? Why is a 'scientist' using a divining rod? Why should others spend their efforts and funds when Moller/Wyatt Inc. refuse to release vital information to the scientific community and the public at large? You've done nothing but avert attention to my apparent audacity in asking questions. And yes, I probably do pretend to know what I'm talking about when I discuss fundamental evidence for archaeological claims. Probably because archaeology is the major I'm working on at the moment.
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Prince Lucianus Inactive Member |
Anybody who actually knows anything about diving, can see the amateurism of his remarks in this piece form the interview. He was a danger to his son.
"ANSWER: When scuba diving to 200 feet you can only stay down for five minutes. What we did when we were working this area over, we would swim at 30 feet because you don't build up any pressure or nitrogen compression at that depth. So basically you can swim at that depth all day long if you can keep an air supply. And then when we saw something that looked like it might be an artifact, we would dive down on it quickly, check it out and take pictures if it was something worthwhile. Even so at the end of the day, my son's nose was bleeding and my left shoulder was hurting He was lucky to live for several years after these stunts. Lucy Bible Search Results "Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses. Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering "Dear God, I understand that if I fail to believe in you, I'll burn in Hell for all eternity. Thanks for being such a good sport about it." -- Dr. Oswald Pratt
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Prince Lucianus Inactive Member |
quote: I've seen picture proof of ufo's and bigfoot. I don't accept these, but apparently you do.Picture's do not equal proof now do they. And again, Moller is a medical researcher. How much did that contribute to the "Exodus Case"? Lucy Bible Search Results "Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses. Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering "Dear God, I understand that if I fail to believe in you, I'll burn in Hell for all eternity. Thanks for being such a good sport about it." -- Dr. Oswald Pratt
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JimSDA Inactive Member |
Yes, Lennart Moller works at the Karolinska Institute as a medical researcher -- but don't you think that he can have "side interests" where he can use the same degree of professionlism to investigate other things? The bottom line here about Lennart Moller is that he has A GOOD HEAD ON HIS SHOULDERS! And he brought the same degree of professionalism to his research on the Exodus as he brings to his medical work!
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