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Author Topic:   Why do you believe what you believe?
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 108 (226718)
07-27-2005 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Parasomnium
07-27-2005 9:40 AM


Re: Begging the question
Hi, Parasomnium.
It's not quite a sophistry; since time supposedly began at the singularity, I can't make sense of what it means for something to have caused the universe to come into existence. To be a "cause" seems to imply existing "prior", but there is no "prior".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Parasomnium, posted 07-27-2005 9:40 AM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Parasomnium, posted 07-27-2005 10:23 AM Chiroptera has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 108 (226719)
07-27-2005 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Chiroptera
07-27-2005 9:58 AM


Re: my, the logic is getting convoluted
That the universe may have existed forever? I don't see the logical impossibility of that. That the universe may have "begun" without a cause?
That the universe has existed forever makes sense. That the universe began without a cause makes no sense. But if you want to say "it's possible," fine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Chiroptera, posted 07-27-2005 9:58 AM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Parasomnium, posted 07-27-2005 10:25 AM robinrohan has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 48 of 108 (226724)
07-27-2005 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Chiroptera
07-27-2005 10:01 AM


Sophistry
Sophistry or not, I think we agree. If 'existing' means to occupy time and space, or even just time, then nothing can exist before time and space are created. So nothing can have created the universe. By that definition of existence the universe itself cannot even be said to exist: it would need to occupy space and time, which is what it consist of, not exists in.

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Chiroptera, posted 07-27-2005 10:01 AM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 49 of 108 (226725)
07-27-2005 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by robinrohan
07-27-2005 10:02 AM


Causes
robinrohan writes:
That the universe began without a cause makes no sense.
Only if you think that everything must have a cause. Maybe that's not the case.

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by robinrohan, posted 07-27-2005 10:02 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by robinrohan, posted 07-27-2005 10:32 AM Parasomnium has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 108 (226728)
07-27-2005 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Parasomnium
07-27-2005 10:25 AM


Re: Causes
Only if you think that everything must have a cause. Maybe that's not the case.
Maybe not. And maybe there's a god. I don't see any reason for accepting one idea over the other.
Therefore, it's just as rational to believe in god as not to believe in god.
Such beliefs are not on the same level as believing in pixies, which are merely extraneous entities.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Parasomnium, posted 07-27-2005 10:25 AM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by CK, posted 07-27-2005 10:40 AM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 54 by Chiroptera, posted 07-27-2005 12:20 PM robinrohan has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 51 of 108 (226730)
07-27-2005 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by robinrohan
07-27-2005 10:32 AM


Re: Causes
But pixies may have created the universe, then traveled back in time to create themselves.

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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 52 of 108 (226733)
07-27-2005 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by CK
07-27-2005 10:40 AM


Re: Causes
I can accept pixies, but I draw the line at fairies and leprechauns. Everyone's faith has its limits.

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 Message 51 by CK, posted 07-27-2005 10:40 AM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 108 (226734)
07-27-2005 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by deerbreh
07-27-2005 10:47 AM


By any other name
You can call it what you like--pixies, fairies, the cosmic egg . . .
But if the universe was created, something had to create it. But there's always the possibility that it has existed forever.

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 108 (226758)
07-27-2005 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by robinrohan
07-27-2005 10:32 AM


Re: Causes
Well, I have a reason for rejecting the hypothesis of God. If there were a God who created the universe, then I would expect some evidence of this God interacting with the universe in some way. Since I have never seen any good evidence that some God is interacting with the universe, I conclude that God, like pixies, is an extraneous entity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by robinrohan, posted 07-27-2005 10:32 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by robinrohan, posted 07-27-2005 12:39 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 108 (226768)
07-27-2005 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Chiroptera
07-27-2005 12:20 PM


"evidence"
The evidence, such as it is, is that the universe exists, and the speculation is that it used not to (big bang). If that is the case, something had to make it come into existence. That something we label "god." No reason why "god," whatever that is, should "interact."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Chiroptera, posted 07-27-2005 12:20 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Chiroptera, posted 07-27-2005 12:42 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 61 by deerbreh, posted 07-27-2005 3:22 PM robinrohan has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 108 (226770)
07-27-2005 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by robinrohan
07-27-2005 12:39 PM


Re: "evidence"
I guess I prefer to simply state "I don't know" than to postulate the existence of an entity whose sole purpose for existing is to "explain" this one event. It still seems extraneous to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by robinrohan, posted 07-27-2005 12:39 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by robinrohan, posted 07-27-2005 12:45 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 108 (226772)
07-27-2005 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Chiroptera
07-27-2005 12:42 PM


Re: "evidence"
The only way it could be extraneous is if the universe existed always. Otherwise, "god" is the cause of everything. You could hardly call that extraneous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Chiroptera, posted 07-27-2005 12:42 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Chiroptera, posted 07-27-2005 1:43 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 64 by Parasomnium, posted 07-27-2005 4:15 PM robinrohan has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 108 (226789)
07-27-2005 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by robinrohan
07-27-2005 12:45 PM


Re: "evidence"
Uh-oh. We seem to have come around full circle.
Are you are using "god" to mean the unknown, and perhaps unknowable, origin of the universe? Because if you are, then I don't have much objection to what you say. I feel, though, that it may be a bit misleading; when most people talk of "god" and the origin of the universe, they are referring to an intelligent entity that is consciously creating the universe.
At any rate, we still haven't determined that universe needs a "cause", even it has only existed for a finite amount of time.

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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 59 of 108 (226791)
07-27-2005 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rahvin
07-25-2005 4:15 PM


Why do I believe what I believe?
Because if I do not believe, then everything that makes my life full and real and good is dead. Without God, my life is hollow, my feelings mean nothing, and what I percieve as real is not real. I have no hope and no reason for living, but my own pleasure... and I've already tried that and I'm not very happy that way.
I also trust the information provided to me in the gospels... and I'm learning that Buddhists have realized much truth as well. This makes me think there is one truth that we are all capable of discovering... though not through conceptual thought.
I have never experienced a miracle, but I also trust my friends who have described truly supernatural miracles such as God speaking to them or seeing angels and demons. It's not proof, but it helps.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Chiroptera, posted 07-27-2005 2:59 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 108 (226816)
07-27-2005 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Hangdawg13
07-27-2005 1:46 PM


quote:
Because if I do not believe, then everything that makes my life full and real and good is dead. Without God, my life is hollow, my feelings mean nothing, and what I percieve as real is not real.
I can sympathize with this a bit. Although it wasn't quite as bad as you're saying here, losing my faith was not at all a pleasant experience. Which is one of the reasons I have no respect for the claim that somehow people choose not to believe in God.

This message is a reply to:
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