love one to another

yes. everyone is loveable. everyone has value. i've known some real bastards. i've heard of worse. i can't imagine a single person with absolutely nothing redeeming. but. all people require love. all babies will die if they are not loved (look it up, i'm serious). love does not mean denying imperfection. love simply means applying mercy.

i think you should give pause before you decide that something said has no value.

I understand what you mean. "Love" in that sense means "charity" in the old sense of that word (good will toward someone).

"Father, Forgive them for they know not what they do!"Jesus even loved the Pharisees as the hung Him on the cross and spat on Him.Have you ever read "The Hiding Place"? Its a true story.The most powerful thing I got from that book, was when Corrie and her sister Betsie were in the concentration camp, cold, naked, and humilitated witnessing another naked woman being brutally beaten by a nazi guard. Betsie starts weeping and crying out in prayer to God for "that person." This happens on several occasions, and Corrie finally realizes that her sister is not weeping and praying for the person being beaten, but rather for the one doing the beating.Betsie died at the camp, but she told her sister that after the war, Corrie had to tell people about what they learned there about love and forgiveness. So that's what Corrie did. She traveled around preaching about the power of forgiveness.Then one day in the audience was an ex-nazi guard from her concentration camp who had been so cruel. He came up to Corrie afterwards and thanked her so much for her message of forgiveness and he offered Corrie his hand. Now Corrie had to forgive him. It was the hardest thing she ever had to do, but at last she stretched out her hand to his, and they both wept as all the wounds were healed.Even the most unlovable people can be loved, and that love has power can change them.

I recoil negatively from that. That prayer strikes me as despicable.

Why? Aren't you just as capable of such cruelty? Isn't the person doing the beating in worse shape in the end than the person being beaten?"At what price Justice? At what price mercy?"

I don't know. But I'm not the least been interested in the welfare of that Nazi guard. He's one of the "unlovable."

What is the cut-off point for lovability? Is there one?God hated Paul because Paul was murdering people right and left. But God had mercy on Paul and loved him, and Paul became a new man.God hated me because I was a liar a murderer and adulterer (by Jesus definition), but he had mercy on me and loved me, and I became a new man.God hated that Nazi that you also hate, but God, through Betsie, loved him and had mercy on him, and that Nazi became a new man.This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 02-25-2006 02:04 PM

I'd rather he fry in Hell myself. Some things are not forgivable. Deliberate cruelty is not forgivable.ABE: I'm plagiarizing from "Streetcar Named Desire," I just realized.This message has been edited by robinrohan, 02-25-2006 01:10 PMThis message has been edited by robinrohan, 02-25-2006 01:15 PM

Hangdawg is right. In context Betsy is recognizing that the Nazi is earning himself an eternity of unimaginable misery by beating the woman, which he doesn't know he is doing. Christian love at its highest is often counterintuitive, quite the opposite of what so many think love is, often the opposite of what is described here at EvC as love.If the Nazi repents he can be saved. But it is all predicated on repentance, of being genuinely remorseful for such cruelties and doing what he can to rectify them too. In praying for him Betsy is praying for his repentance, his conversion.This is always the doorway into the Kingdom of God. You put your sinful life behind you and make up for it if you can, depending on Christ's mercy for salvation. The Nazi's was more conspicuously sinful than many but any sin at all earns us Hell. There are certainly degrees of Hell though. You don't have to worry about the cruelest most evil unrepentant sinners getting anything but the punishment due the crime.Unfortunately the milder sinners by our standards may not be so mild by God's. All need to repent and put their sins behind them if they expect to have a happy eternity.{abe: Hangdawg is also right that any one of us could be that incorrigible a sinner. This is what "judge not lest ye be judged" REALLY means, it doesn't mean that we are not to recognize sin, in fact Christians are to be very alert to sin among Christians, but it does mean that we are not to condemn sinners among unbelievers since we were once one of them, and once earned Hell just as they are doing. WARNING sinners is something else, that is not condemnation, though so many seem to mistake it for that.This message has been edited by Faith, 02-25-2006 04:22 PM

Interesting. A Dante-esque thought.This message has been edited by robinrohan, 02-25-2006 03:58 PM

I am truely disappointed in your response. You almost hurt my feelings.
What exactly have I suggested, or have you completely missed my point. I thought I was being very humble.Jesus was not always so gentle. That doesn't give me or you free reign to not be gentle, but it shows us how Jesus did what he had to do. It sounds to me like you are throwing some stones at the people on campus.

It must be tough being an admin and not interjecting your own personal thoughts.

Except for me.

It's scriptural.