We are agreed then. I also admit that things like String Theory are certainly blurring the lines. As to not making claims about what we don't know...I mostly agree, but we can show what is likely. Based on what I have shown, it seems highly unlikely that there could have been a cause for the universe, and it certainly did not need to have a cause simply becasue it happened. In the face of what we do understand about the nature of space, time, and the singularity, evidence must be provided that the universe MUST have had a cause.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

My conclusions are based on the nature of space-time as science understands it today. The universe is expanding, so science theorizes the Big Bang - a theory that has been backed up with large amounts of evidence including the structure of the microwave background radiation.Yours are based on idle speculation. Perhaps - but according to the lates astronomical observations that I am aware of, scientists currently believe the expansion to be accellerating. Incorrect. There is a large body of evidence supporting the Big Bang. Here is a short list.

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# First of all, we are reasonably certain that the universe had a beginning.
# Second, galaxies appear to be moving away from us at speeds proportional to their distance. This is called "Hubble's Law," named after Edwin Hubble (1889-1953) who discovered this phenomenon in 1929. This observation supports the expansion of the universe and suggests that the universe was once compacted.
# Third, if the universe was initially very, very hot as the Big Bang suggests, we should be able to find some remnant of this heat. In 1965, Radioastronomers Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson discovered a 2.725 degree Kelvin (-454.765 degree Fahrenheit, -270.425 degree Celsius) Cosmic Microwave Background radiation (CMB) which pervades the observable universe. This is thought to be the remnant which scientists were looking for. Penzias and Wilson shared in the 1978 Nobel Prize for Physics for their discovery.
# Finally, the abundance of the "light elements" Hydrogen and Helium found in the observable universe are thought to support the Big Bang model of origins.

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My conclusions are not based on idle speculation, CS - they are based on observable data and accepted theory. A very nice hypothesis with no actual basis in observable evidence. As a matter of fact, since such a scenario would be impossible to prove and no evidence would ever exist of such a pre-existing universe (theoretically by this model everything would be destroyed totally in the Big Crunch and re-created int he Big Bang), it's just as likely that magic fairies from outside the universe created the Sungularity. Such extraneous entities and scenarios are unnecessary to explain the Big Bang, and so Occam's Razor tells us to disregard them as irrelevant. No, this is what I understand the modern scientific conception of the Singularity is. If I am mistaken, please show me where I can find a more accurate view.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

As I understand it, (correct me if I'm wrong), most scientists are agreed that time and space began at the BB and that time and space will end at some point. (Maybe the Big Rip.)Is it not just as much of an oxymoron to say "after the Big Rip" when time has ceased.It seems to me that if the universe and time with it had a beginning it has to have an end. If the universe has both a beginning and an end it seems to me that something external to the universe is requires. That something external could, and very likely would be, "cause".

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Assuming time stops, then yes.But the Big Rip is not so much the end of space and time - it only suggests that the expansion would eventually accellerate past the speed of light and thus travel faster than the forces of nature propagate. In other words, you would be moving away from the Sun faster than the light it produces could reach you - except this would be happening at every point in space, so the forces that hold your constituent particles together would also rip apart.Space and time do not cease to exist in this scenario, to my understanding. They simply accellerate.Of course, in this scenario we and everything we know would be irrevokable annihilated, so the point is rather moot. For us, at the very least, the future would never arrive.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

Why would we need to have beliefs? No, atheists lack a belief in God. That's what that word, atheism, means. You've just defined the word in the exact way that I'm using it.I swear, it's like people around here copy and paste definitions without reading them, without seeing that they've pasted something that proves my exact point.Why does this happen so often? It's incredible.

Simple. Replace "god" with "IPU".

Off Topic. Please do not respond to this message

I could have sworn he's been banned for good. Don't you remember that Chris doesn't like to be (and I emphasize just like he did) TOLD about things, like how to read? Unlike the rest of us, he seemed to have been borned with all the knowledge of everything hardwired right into his brain. That's why his "logic" is flawless and his reading comprehension is incredible.This message has been edited by GAW-Snow, 08-16-2005 06:49 PMThis message has been edited by AdminJar, 08-16-2005 05:53 PM

Perhaps an analogy will help.Colors are different wavelengths of light. White is a mixture of all colors.Black is not a color - it's the absence of light.In the same way, various belief structures that believe deities DO exist are like different colors.Atheism is like black - it is the absence of any belief in a deity. It is not a blief, just as black is not a color - it is the absence of any belief in a deity, becasue they see no evidence that suggests that one exists.Does that make more sense? It's not a belief system - it's the absence of a belief system.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

Dunno if that`s a good analogy, Rahv. Isn`t black associated with evil--black mood, black-hearted,etc.

Perhaps, but it's irrelevant to the analogy. Black as an absence of light is, I think, an effective analogy for atheism as a lack of belief in a deity. If someone wants to attach emotional nonsense to an otherwise functional analogy, it doesn't affect the argument.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

Theism: the lack of belief in something from nothing

Inaccurate.

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Theism: Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.

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This is Theism. It is the belief in the existance of a deity.Atheism is the lack of a belief in a deity. The A- prefix means "no" or "not."Besides, atheism has nothing to do with "something from nothing."

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

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The singularity encompassed all of time.

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The future does not exist yet.

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How does singularity encompass something that does not exist? How does todays science understand that? Your conclusion is that the singularity was a line of infinite present with no future. Are you sure todays science supports your conclusion? I don't have time to look it up for you. You seem to have a good understanding of the big bang and the singularity, but you seem to throw in a lot of speculation as well. No, its not just as likely. A Big Crunch vs Magic Fairies....same likelyhood? no.
____________________________________________________________________ Actually, this is a misconception. The word atheism comes from the greek word atheos which means godlessness. Take off the -os and add an -ism to make it the doctrine or belief of godlessness.

"Theos" - God"a" - without"atheos" - without god; "atheism" - the position that is without god.

Time to put this puppy to bed. Closing it down.

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