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Author Topic:   The Bible and the Hittites, Exploding another 'Biblical Archaeology' Myth.
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 31 of 53 (319665)
06-09-2006 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Textcritic
06-09-2006 11:39 AM


Welcome
I noticed that you mentioned you are completing a dissertation in what appears to be Near Eastern Acrheology or Biblical Studies.
I graduated in May 2005 from the University of Glasgow. The dissertation was an appraisal of the debate over the origins of Ancient Israel. I used three sources, the Hebrew Bible, archaeological evidence, and comparative anthropology.
am currently working on a PhD from the University of Manchester in Second Temple Jewish Literature, with an emphasis on the Dead Sea Scrolls.
I studied under a Manchester graduate for my honour degree at Stirling. You have more than likely heard of Keith Whitelam, it was one of his courses that initially got me interested in the origins debate.
Where are you studying, and what is the topic of your thesis?
As I said, I graduated last May from Glasgow, it was a Master of Theology by Research. I began an M.litt is archaeology last september, also at Glasgow, but I had to withdraw because it was taking up too much time. I have since found a uni that offers a MA in archaeology by distance learning, so I will be starting that later in the year.
I am not an archaeologist, but I have a prevailing interest in Israelite history and early religious foundations.
In my studies I was initially interested in the development of religions, but I am now leaning more towards focussing on archaeology. If I complete the MA in archaeology I will be in the fortunate position of having two disciplines in which to attempt a PhD.
I have been teaching Religious Education and History at high schools since 1999, and tutoring at Glasgow uni since 2003 (Intro to Hebrew Bible and Eastern Religions), but I see my future in adult ed.
Nice to have you aboard, I hope you can hang around as I am sure you will be an extremely valuable addition to the board.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Textcritic, posted 06-09-2006 11:39 AM Textcritic has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 32 of 53 (319667)
06-09-2006 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by truthlover
06-09-2006 5:05 PM


not serious
and he rather aggressively publishes against our faith on this board.
But, you do know that 99% of the time it is tongue in cheek?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by truthlover, posted 06-09-2006 5:05 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 33 of 53 (319923)
06-10-2006 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Brian
06-09-2006 7:29 PM


Re: not serious
But, you do know that 99% of the time it is tongue in cheek?
No, I didn't. In fact, I'm trying to think of what you mean, and I think you must be referring to some of the things you poke literalists with.
I was thinking of things like questions about Yeshua ever existing, about the occurrence or non-occurrence of the Exodus and the Flood, and even of things like this Hittite issue. Those are favorite issues of yours, and I don't think you're joking about them.
By aggressive, I meant quick to post on subjects that would put the historicity of the Hebrew Scriptuers and Christian events at question, not an aggressive attitude.
I take it that tongue in cheek means some of your jabs at the more close-minded literalists? I do take those as tongue in cheek.
Edited by truthlover, : Took out extraneous words that made my post sound wordy and mamby-pamby.

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 Message 32 by Brian, posted 06-09-2006 7:29 PM Brian has not replied

  
romlin
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 53 (343181)
08-25-2006 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
11-20-2003 1:59 PM


re:hittites
was it not true that troy was also consided legend until they found the remains of it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 11-20-2003 1:59 PM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by ReverendDG, posted 08-25-2006 1:19 AM romlin has replied
 Message 38 by Nighttrain, posted 08-25-2006 8:18 PM romlin has replied

  
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 35 of 53 (343184)
08-25-2006 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by romlin
08-25-2006 1:12 AM


Re: re:hittites
was it not true that troy was also consided legend until they found the remains of it?
yes, but fundy's like to say the hitties are the hitties in the bible but as brian says in that post they arn't,they are miles from where the bible says they are and very different.
they shouldn't be called the hitties really, but its stuck

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by romlin, posted 08-25-2006 1:12 AM romlin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by romlin, posted 08-25-2006 1:31 AM ReverendDG has not replied

  
romlin
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 53 (343188)
08-25-2006 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by ReverendDG
08-25-2006 1:19 AM


Re: re:hittites
i tend to agree that people do tend to take the bible as complete and utter truth,then comes the debate about devinly written or alot of the writters imaganation or own beliefs, if it was written by man then can we not come to the assumption that he or they have added alot of twisted half truths which as people with a bit of wisdom will know our history is full of land raiders that destroy all knowen referances to that countrys origanal people or twist their history to make them out as villians etc

This message is a reply to:
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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 37 of 53 (343384)
08-25-2006 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Brian
06-09-2006 7:28 PM


Re: Welcome
Brian: Many thanks. Most enlightening! My best to you as you pursue further studies.
textcritic: Thank you for introducing yourself and sharing these details about your work. Fascinating!
I hope both of you will keep the rest of us informed about your publishing activities.

Archer

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 Message 31 by Brian, posted 06-09-2006 7:28 PM Brian has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 38 of 53 (343421)
08-25-2006 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by romlin
08-25-2006 1:12 AM


Re: re:hittites
was it not true that troy was also consided legend until they found the remains of it?
Not to derail the Hittite thread too much, but has it ever been proven that Schlieman`s discovery really was Troy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by romlin, posted 08-25-2006 1:12 AM romlin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by romlin, posted 08-25-2006 8:38 PM Nighttrain has replied

  
romlin
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 53 (343425)
08-25-2006 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Nighttrain
08-25-2006 8:18 PM


troy
according to arceoligists the remains is in the pricise location that homer said it was so i presume that they have reserched it propely before they claimed that it definetly was, but that is like alot of greek legends (and probably bible stories as well)is based upon events that did take place but has,over time,been twisted or biased towards one side of the story.so i think you can safly assume that the bible as with alot of different countrys legends and ancient stories are based on actual events be them being greatly exsagerated or biased towards one side

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Nighttrain, posted 08-25-2006 8:18 PM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Nighttrain, posted 08-26-2006 10:00 PM romlin has replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 40 of 53 (343793)
08-26-2006 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by romlin
08-25-2006 8:38 PM


Re: troy
Hi, Rom, and welcome. From memory, there were seven levels of city building in the supposedly-Troy dogpile. I don`t think the trinkets found by Schlieman were ever definitively placed at the timeline of Homer`s epic. But I could be wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by romlin, posted 08-25-2006 8:38 PM romlin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by romlin, posted 08-28-2006 1:29 AM Nighttrain has not replied

  
romlin
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 53 (344133)
08-28-2006 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Nighttrain
08-26-2006 10:00 PM


Re: troy
can't say myself ether,the location is correct but as you say their is evidence of at least 7 different ocupations at the site but like i said before all we can safly say i suppose is that ancient legends etc is at least has an element of truth to it....... we have completly de railed the origanal topic havent we.... and thank you pleasure to be able to put my 2 cents worth in

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 Message 42 by romlin, posted 08-28-2006 1:36 AM romlin has replied

  
romlin
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 53 (344136)
08-28-2006 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by romlin
08-28-2006 1:29 AM


Re: hittites
on the hittites i do not know to much about them but i will do some research on it and if the forum is still open when im a bit more knowledgeable i will get back

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by romlin, posted 08-28-2006 1:29 AM romlin has replied

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romlin
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 53 (344141)
08-28-2006 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by romlin
08-28-2006 1:36 AM


Re: hittites
from what i can gather the hitites mentioned in the bible are said to dwell(according to the bible) "in the mountains" and "towards the north" of Canaan ” this does match the general direction and geography of the original Hittite empire,so presumably you could say that they could be one in the same,and remembering that the bible as well as alot of written history is most probably a little in accurate because it was remember written by man and we dont know what sort of influances or bias was involved when it was written

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dangel
Junior Member (Idle past 5632 days)
Posts: 1
From: washington DC
Joined: 10-25-2008


Message 44 of 53 (486926)
10-25-2008 4:45 PM


I wanted to share this article (written by Sheila Graham) about the matter...
Cordially,
Diego Angel-Urdinola
====
...Even before my studies I knew the Hittites were an ancient people mentioned several times in the Bible. After Sarah died, Abraham bought the cave of Machpelah near Hebron from the Hittites for a family burial site.
But I was surprised to learn historians and archaeologists didn’t believe the Hittites ever lived in the Palestine region, and certainly not during the time of Abraham. At one time, some scholars doubted the Hittites ever existed at all, anywhere.
But after some significant 20th century archaeological finds, scholars now concur there were indeed such a people, but they were not the small tribes mentioned in the Bible. The Hittites were a major empire with a capital, Hattusha, located at Bogazkoy, about 100 miles east of Ankara in Anatolia, now part of Turkey, not even close to Palestine.
Well, I was determined to show when the Bible says Abraham bought a cave from the Hittites, Abraham bought that cave, and it was from the Hittites. My professor was amused at my resoluteness, but encouraged me in my efforts.
Hittites or bust
After extensive research, I had to admit archaeological finds so far have not confirmed a Hittite presence in Palestine during the period when Abraham lived (the second millennium B.C.E.). As far as archaeologists can tell, northern Hittite troops did not go farther south than Damascus. No neo-Hittite states (Hittites referred to in later books”1 and 2 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings, 1 Chronicles) have been found south of Hamath, so that also excludes any territory in Palestine.
But, archaeological finds of Egyptian origin in Anatolia confirm records of the relations between the Hittites and Egyptians, powerful rivals on either side of Palestine. When the Hittites began extending their empire south into Syria, their successes caught the attention of the Egyptians. The two superpowers pushed each other back and forth for control of Syria and Palestine.
Isn’t this thrilling? Hang in there. I’m nearly done.
The Hittites led by Muwattalis won a major battle against the Egyptians and their king Rameses II at Kadesh on the Orontes River about 1300 B.C.E. Some years later a peace treaty was made between Rameses II and Hattusilis III.
Now here’s the interesting part. Archaeologists have come to realize the Anatolian Hittites and the Syrian Hittites are of the same peoples. Canaanite mythological tales were also found incorporated into Hittite mythology. So these peoples were certainly not isolated from one another
Another possibility?
References to the Hittites in Canaan during Abraham’s time could also have been the biblical writers’ use of contemporary geographical terms. In other words, the Jews who many years later recorded these events in the Bible may have used the names of the people who occupied the territories during their own time rather than during Abraham’s time.
All the Hittites named in the Bible have Semitic names. So if they were Hittites of the old empire or neo-Hittites, they had been assimilated into the Semitic culture.
Numbers 13:29 is attributed to an early biblical writer, who tells us the Hittites "occupied the hill country" of Palestine. And this agrees with the story of Abraham purchasing the cave of Machpelah from the Hittites.
So although I could not definitely prove from archaeology that the Hittites were situated in Palestine at the time of Abraham, archaeological finds do reveal the close relationships between the two ancient superpowers”the Hittite Empire and Egypt.
The Hittites and the Egyptians traveled back and forth, over or around Palestine, to do battle or to try to cement peaceful relations, depending on what rulers were in power. Small families of Hittites could have ended up in Palestine.
So I found the Hittites. But maybe by now you wish I’d left my discovery with my professors.
Does it matter?
Does it matter whether or not those people called Hittites in the Bible were really Hittites? Does it matter if Abraham bought a cave from a tribe biblical writers many centuries later identified as Hittites, but which really were some other small tribe, with a different name?
What if archaeologists never find anything to prove conclusively Hittites were around during the time of Abraham or Joshua or the Judges? Or what if they do? Does it really matter?
God doesn’t lie. It mattered to me once. I thought every word in the Bible, whether written in a poem or a psalm or a parable, was literally true and historically precise. If it were not, then could any of the Bible be trusted? I wouldn’t allow myself to entertain such thoughts.
After all, the Bible is the Word of God, and God does not lie. I still believe that, by the way.
While I realize archaeologists’ finds more often than not substantiate what is recorded in the Bible, I do not stake my faith on whether or not the Hittites lived in Palestine during the time of Abraham. The Word of God is inspired, but it was not written as a history textbook or a scientific journal.
The Bible was written to lead humanity to salvation in Christ Jesus, freedom from sin and death”not to give us a Hittite history lesson. There is power in the Word of God”power to transform your life and mine.
As the author of 2 Timothy says: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" (2 Tim. 3:16).
God’s Word was written to change lives for the better, and couldn’t your life use a little changing? I know mine could.

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Brian, posted 10-25-2008 4:52 PM dangel has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 45 of 53 (486927)
10-25-2008 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by dangel
10-25-2008 4:45 PM


Poor quality article
But I was surprised to learn historians and archaeologists didn’t believe the Hittites ever lived in the Palestine region, and certainly not during the time of Abraham. At one time, some scholars doubted the Hittites ever existed at all, anywhere.
Who are these anonymous scholars that fundies keep mentioning?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by dangel, posted 10-25-2008 4:45 PM dangel has not replied

  
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