Jar's belief statement- Part 2

i'm a fan of #2 but not necessarily in the doing, but in the desiring and the chasing after. if i fail once but i have hoped and prayed and sought after a right heart, my god is faithful to my thirst for him.it is this same right heart that creates the desire for faith. i want it, i need it, i lust for it... but sometimes it comes and sometimes it doesn't.will i be judged, do you think, based on my thirst for god or for the fact that i think my god doesn't hate fags?

Hey jar, sorry I missed the first part of your faith statement, and thank you for sharing, being honest, and exposing your beliefs. I have mixed feelings about your interpretation of who gets saved, or not, and I remain undecided on who will go to heaven or not. Most likely I will always be that way.I am still not ready to accept that everyone is going to heaven, as an absolute. The reason being, not only does the bible teach us that there are people who will go to hell, but my experiences in life lead me to question peoples hearts.The story of the warlord is cute, and it almost moved me, ( I sometimes wonder the same thing myself, and come to the same conclusion you have) but instantly gave me revelation. You see Jesus is the bread of life, he is the food. Jesus has provided food for everyone, so that they may be saved. All we have to do is eat of it.The warlord could very well have provided food for everyone, but he cannot force people to eat it. So there will be some that die by their own doing.I am pretty sure the only way into heaven is through Jesus. The question for me is, just what does that mean?

Are you saying that this is what you believe jar is saying? That all go to heaven?

Yes.

I suggest that you read his posts again. He does not say that all go to heaven.I have seen him state that all are saved by the grace of god, but that judgment will take place on everyones' actions.This judgment will decide the final destination. I hope he will correct me on any mistakes I make about his statements.

But that is not at all what I believe.Let me try another way to explain what I believe.Many Christians here and in the world seem to believe, or say that they believe, that man is born damned and that the only way to salvation is by believing in Jesus. They then claim that if someone believes in Jesus they will do good works. They go on to say that only those that believe in Jesus will be saved.When you point to believers though who do horrific things, their usual response seems to be "those were not true-christians". You point to non-believers who behave better than the Christians and they say "They are damned because they do not believe."I feel that is simply a copout.I do not believe that GOD creates damned people. A GOD that creates damned people and then tells them "Hey, believe in me and you will be saved" is no different than the warlord, cruel and evil. I agree. But they will not die because the warlord failed to provide food. They will also not have died because of their lack of belief in the warlord.You have argued in the past that Christianity provides a set of Moral guidelines that is not present in other groups such as Atheists.Let's work with that for a second and see what that means.I believe that each of us will be judged individually on what we do, what we fail to do and on what we might have done. GOD will judge each of us from Her base of Perfect Knowledge, She will know our limits and potentials, and we will not be able to stand there and say "That was too hard" or "That was beyond my capability". GOD will know.What this means is that a Christian will be judged to a higher standard than an Atheist. The Atheist may well be able to stand before GOD and say "I didn't now I was supposed to Love others as I love myself", but the Christian can't. We were given the manual.When Jesus threw the big fish fry by the sea, and it came time to party down, He didn't survey the crowd, all those who believe get fish and chips, the rest are on their own. Everyone was fed. We are told that the people came to hear Jesus, and that many were converted, but they ALL got fed.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."I'm going to paraphrase with emphasis:I AM [is] the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me[the sense of I AM].From some of the content passed along in the gospels I think it's possible that a Jew awakened and began to teach but was killed before he could develop his followers to understand his teaching and the Chrisitianity that resulted is an attempt to translate unconditioned nondual expressions of insight into dualist ego constructs.From my view point, Jesus was not talking about his body, mind, or ego or any external way. He was pointing to the truth that is found in seeing your existence and following it back to the sense of I AM. Not I am this or that. Paul was at the edge of it when he said "It is not I that live, it is Christ that lives in me"(Gal 2:20). So who or what is the Christ that lives within Paul? Paul being the ego identity.It's not the name Jesus, or Christ that is important at all, it's the sense of being, of I AM, that is key. But the church has turned to maintaining a society of egos and generally attempts to block awakening.Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.This statement in Luke is what Zen Buddhists would call a koan. A challenge to the rational ego. The Christian church wants to shut that door and bar it. Heaven is something controlled by the authorities a place for the ego to gain admittance to.Yet Paul almost gets it. The ego doesn't exist so how can it get to heaven? The consciousness that lives the ego can be called Jesus, Christ, God, Buddha nature, Tao, Brahman, What Is. It doesn't matter what you call it, because there is no it there, no name, just IS.lfen

I agree with that. I agree with that also. God will judged us based on what we know. This is where I don't agree. I am not saying I am right, or you are wrong, I am just not convinced that is the case.There could be a whole thread on that subject, but one thing that comes to mind is that I am not even convinced that there can be such a thing as an atheist. It is alos possible that God does indeed put His laws on our hearts and minds, and to deny them, is a knowing thing, judgable by the same standard for all. Yes, Jsesus is the bread of life for everyone. We all know God. Some just choose to deny it. What happens to them, is really not up to me. If I was in charge, I would have a hard time sending anyone to hell, but I am basing that on ignorance, and my own gullability. Maybe if I knew what God knew, I wouldn't be so forgiving? This is where I am still undecided, and praying for answers. But the answers may never be revealed to me, as I don't need to know. I don't think He creates damned people either. He creates us with a choice, a freedom of will, His laws in our hearts. We choose our destiny, not Him. He just gives us the chance to choose, and things to choose from.Which brings me back to the thought, just what is it to believe in Jesus? If it is possible that God's laws are really inside all of us, then we all know Him, whether we profess it with our mouths or not. I guess that is where the judging based on what we know comes into play.But I don't think there is a single person on this planet that can say who is going to hell or not.

I can accept all that as a possibility.

to which riVeRraT replied:

quote:

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This is where I don't agree. I am not saying I am right, or you are wrong, I am just not convinced that is the case.

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There could be a whole thread on that subject, but one thing that comes to mind is that I am not even convinced that there can be such a thing as an atheist. It is alos possible that God does indeed put His laws on our hearts and minds, and to deny them, is a knowing thing, judgable by the same standard for all.

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I'm not at all sure what it is you disagree with. Can you try again to explain to me what it is specifically?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I think I know where the Rat is coming from. He believes that everyone is intrinsically aware of the standards whether they are believers or not. (Romans 1:1-18)Thus, everyone will be judged equally.You on the other hand, are pointing out that those of us who have had Bible class and understand the ideas put forth by Jesus Christ
will be judged on a higher standard. (To whom much is given, much is required)

Hell is one of those vague concepts that elicits much controversy.I dont believe that Hell, if it exists, was intended for humans. It was intended for the very spirits of rebellion who deny God at every opportunity and seek glory and honor for themselves.Humans would end up in Hell by continually and repeatedly denying the still small voice within them which tells them what they should do rather than what they "feel like" doing or what seems easiest.It is a lot easier for me, for example, to place the blame for my job troubles on a wealthy C.E.O. or an eager immigrant who wants to work cheaply than it is for me to take responsibility for my own attitude on a daily basis.Rat, if you are right in that IF we all intrinsically know of the existence of a higher power--if not personally--we all then have the capability to choose the best decision in each instance of our life where a decision presents itself.Christians could arguably be held to a higher standard only because they themselves have created a higher standard and will be judged as they so judge,

True.And a God who created "saved" people would mean that the whole concept of Hell and eternal judgement would be just plain silly.A wealthy man had a large inheritance. All of his children were automatically entitled to the inheritance at birth. The only provision that the father insisted his children follow was that they do the best that they could with their lives. There would be no free rides in this family, and the children knew what was expected of them. The wealthy man hired a judge to decide whether or not the heirs had lived up to their part of the bargain.Long after his death, the day arrived when each of the children would be judged according to their lives. (It may well have been a different day for each child or it may well have been one event...I do not know)The Father had also adopted other children without them knowing about it, and had placed them in the will as well.These other children did not know that it was expected of them to do their best in order to receive an inheritance.If you wre the judge, how would you judge each child? Would you judge them based on what they knew, how they behaved, or what they thought? Would you judge them based on tallying up good deeds and weighing them against bad deeds?Would you give the adopted children a break?

Principle Number One: There is no difference between an adopted child and a natural-born child. Refer to Principle Number One. Every child treated as an equal, regardless of what they expected or what was expected of them.

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In some of our most desperate times of need, we will cry out to God. How's that saying go? There are no atheists in fox holes.Yes, we all have the capability to choose the best decision in each instance by turning to God for advice. But of course, that is not what actually happens. Studying it shows me just how life works, and how much deception there is. That is why I believe we will be judged based on what we know, which brings me to the next answer. Since we can't even acurately describe just what a Christian is, how can we say a Christian will be held to a higher standard? Many people claim they are Christian, yet don't even know the Holy Spirit, or even what it is. I met a guy last week, he had a big tattoo of Jesus's face, over a cross in the middle of his chest. I asked what that was all about, he said, and I quote, "I don't really know who Jesus is, but I believe in Him". He really didn't know much about the bible, or go to church, but talk about a leap of faith.What I saw was innocents, pure and simple, and I believe he will go to heaven in that innocents. It was like a child.jar condradicts himself in saying that Christians will be judged by a higher standard, on one hand, than claim "GOD will judge each of us from Her base of Perfect Knowledge,"There is one standard for all, which means we are judged each separately based on what we know. Simply saying your Christian or not, should not matter. It is immpossible to fathom how God will judge us.What is the difference between a teacher molesting a kid, or a preist? At first glance, you may say one or the other, but we don't know God's perfect knowledge base, or just what it was that drove either one to do what they did.