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Author Topic:   Exodus, Merneptah stela and israelites
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 46 of 175 (411169)
07-19-2007 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by IamJoseph
07-19-2007 2:02 AM


Re: Dates
quote:
The 'day' the ten commandments were given is recorded as a saturday in the book of Exodus ('REMEMBER *THIS* DAY AS THE SABBATH'/EX). Care to explain how this is determinable - without a year, as you put it? Its a question of math!
You "worked it out" through the quote you provided. You didn't need to know the year - or do any math. Ergo your challenge answers itself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by IamJoseph, posted 07-19-2007 2:02 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by IamJoseph, posted 07-19-2007 8:49 AM PaulK has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 47 of 175 (411177)
07-19-2007 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Reding
07-19-2007 5:53 AM


Re: Exodus, Merneptah stela and israelites
quote:
IamJoseph, what makes you think “enemies” couldn’t mean anything else but a battle to be free?
Because freedom was the requirement with egypt, and this is also in the narratives.
quote:
Today there are respectable scientists who see Jerusalem as the capital of Judah then, not Israel. There are good reasons to believe that region was split up in a north and south part. The south being Judah where Jerusalem is located. After Israel was destroyed the people fled to the south. I know this but I’m not your best scientist and recommend reading “the bible unearthed” for more details.
No need to read about it, this is known history. There were two states in the nation of israel; the southern state, Judea, contained Jerusalem.
quote:
I thought Canaan was a province of Egypt, hence i don't see how you can talk about a battle to be free.
No, cannan was at some points under egypt's control, but not part of egypt. The Israelite rights transcend Egypt, being born and incepted in canaan.
quote:
!! i don't know how to use a quote function so my apologies for this, any pointers are appreciated!!
It does not see to work for me too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Reding, posted 07-19-2007 5:53 AM Reding has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Reding, posted 07-19-2007 10:51 AM IamJoseph has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 48 of 175 (411182)
07-19-2007 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by PaulK
07-19-2007 7:16 AM


Re: Dates
quote:
You "worked it out" through the quote you provided. You didn't need to know the year - or do any math. Ergo your challenge answers itself.
True, I got this info by reading the texts, and the commentary which backs up the relevent maths. It is not doubtable, being a celebrated festival for 1000s of years. The christians call this the last supper, but unlike the OT calendar accuracy, its observence date is a free floating one.
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by PaulK, posted 07-19-2007 7:16 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by PaulK, posted 07-19-2007 9:06 AM IamJoseph has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 49 of 175 (411189)
07-19-2007 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by IamJoseph
07-19-2007 8:49 AM


Re: Dates
Let us be clear. You claimed that it was impossible to work out that the day was a Saturday without knowing the year. However you did exactly that. And I strongly suggest that you produce these alleged calculations before you are suspended again for refusing to support your claims.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by IamJoseph, posted 07-19-2007 8:49 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by IamJoseph, posted 07-19-2007 9:42 AM PaulK has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 50 of 175 (411194)
07-19-2007 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by IamJoseph
07-19-2007 1:00 AM


Re: another really stupid assertion.
why don't you reply to the person who is talking to you?
also, i'm unconvinced by your purported proof.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by IamJoseph, posted 07-19-2007 1:00 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by IamJoseph, posted 07-19-2007 9:46 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 51 of 175 (411195)
07-19-2007 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by PaulK
07-19-2007 9:06 AM


Re: Dates
quote:
Let us be clear. You claimed that it was impossible to work out that the day was a Saturday without knowing the year. However you did exactly that. And I strongly suggest that you produce these alleged calculations before you are suspended again for refusing to support your claims.
Nope - your understanding is incorrect. The year is not a problem; the first year begins with Adam, today 5766 years ago. This 5766 year calendar is fully aligned with today's years, with some glitches needing adjustments, owing to Pope Gregory's refusal to adopt the lunar and solar hebrew calendar, discarding the lunar section, which does not give accurate days.
When advised so by his bishops, that the new gergorian calendar, which begins 2000 years ago and operating only by the solar impacts, would cause 11 days extra, he responded: 'better to be wrong with he moon than be right with the jews - we will just omit 11 days!'. But there was never any confusion of the year in the hebrew calendar. So if we know a day falls on saturday, it can be confirmed by a calculus of the calendar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by PaulK, posted 07-19-2007 9:06 AM PaulK has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 52 of 175 (411196)
07-19-2007 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by macaroniandcheese
07-19-2007 9:41 AM


Re: another really stupid assertion.
I did answer brenekin.
Which part?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-19-2007 9:41 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-19-2007 10:15 AM IamJoseph has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 53 of 175 (411199)
07-19-2007 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by IamJoseph
07-19-2007 9:46 AM


Re: another really stupid assertion.
no, i wasn't talking to you. i was replying to a comment someone else made about eaters of the dead.
and all parts. i refuse to believe mythical tales which defend the right of a nation based solely on religion which undermines democratic laws by importing more members of that religion to dillute the vote of minorities to exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by IamJoseph, posted 07-19-2007 9:46 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by IamJoseph, posted 07-19-2007 8:36 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
Reding
Junior Member (Idle past 6077 days)
Posts: 29
From: Belgium
Joined: 07-17-2007


Message 54 of 175 (411202)
07-19-2007 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by IamJoseph
07-19-2007 8:39 AM


Re: Exodus, Merneptah stela and israelites
quote:
Because freedom was the requirement with egypt, and this is also in the narratives.
i assume you merely use the bible narratives to support that...
quote:
No, cannan was at some points under egypt's control, but not part of egypt. The Israelite rights transcend Egypt, being born and incepted in canaan.
well throughout the priod of the New Kingdom (c1569-1076 BCE) egyptians were known to cross Canaan as far north as Syria. In the region scientists found campsites, forts, cities , cemetaries and granaries for the egyptian army. There was clearly an infrastructure to support the idea of a province, especially when they controlled it for so long.
Edited by Reding, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by IamJoseph, posted 07-19-2007 8:39 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by IamJoseph, posted 07-19-2007 8:51 PM Reding has replied

  
John Williams
Member (Idle past 4999 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 55 of 175 (411241)
07-19-2007 4:16 PM


Canaan was an Egyptian vassal for about 400 years; 1550-1150 BC, from Ahmose I to Ramose V.

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Reding, posted 07-19-2007 4:55 PM John Williams has not replied

  
Reding
Junior Member (Idle past 6077 days)
Posts: 29
From: Belgium
Joined: 07-17-2007


Message 56 of 175 (411244)
07-19-2007 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by John Williams
07-19-2007 4:16 PM


quote:
Canaan was an Egyptian vassal for about 400 years; 1550-1150 BC, from Ahmose I to Ramose V.
i'm not familiar with the term vassal but if it means a feudal state (i know, it's a modern term) or something resembling i'd be then curious to understand how the Egyptians had that much control of Canaan.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by John Williams, posted 07-19-2007 4:16 PM John Williams has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by PaulK, posted 07-19-2007 5:16 PM Reding has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 57 of 175 (411246)
07-19-2007 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Reding
07-19-2007 4:55 PM


Essentially the Canaanite states accepted Egyptian superiority, allowed Egyptian garrisons in their cities, paid tribute. The Amarna letters come from a time when the system was breaking down but you still can see Canaanite rulers begging for Egyptian troops to help them and professing loyalty. Egypt was strong and the Canaanites were so weak in military terms that even small garrisons were enough to ensure loyalty.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Reding, posted 07-19-2007 4:55 PM Reding has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 58 of 175 (411273)
07-19-2007 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by macaroniandcheese
07-19-2007 10:15 AM


Re: another really stupid assertion.
quote:
i refuse to believe mythical tales which defend the right of a nation based solely on religion which undermines democratic laws by importing more members of that religion to dillute the vote of minorities to exist.
Here, democrasy must bow to the right of a nation to have a homeland. Democracy was introduced in the OT (mytical tales), and has conditions and limitations, while the concept of land is precedent, and prevades all species and life forms. Democracy is a component of 'laws', and 'YOU SHALL LIVE BY THIS LAW', not be destroyed by it. The minority is best protected by the law, which includes the rights of strangers and smaller groups ("Equal justice for the inhabitant as the stranger'). By itself, democracy negates the rights of a minority.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-19-2007 10:15 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-19-2007 9:27 PM IamJoseph has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 59 of 175 (411276)
07-19-2007 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Reding
07-19-2007 10:51 AM


Re: Exodus, Merneptah stela and israelites
quote:
i assume you merely use the bible narratives to support that...
As opposed to what - we know of canaan via OT narratives? The other writings, very meagre bits of letters and relics, and without dates and specific historical data, serve as reflections of the OT narratives.
quote:
:
well throughout the priod of the New Kingdom (c1569-1076 BCE) egyptians were known to cross Canaan as far north as Syria. In the region scientists found campsites, forts, cities , cemetaries and granaries for the egyptian army. There was clearly an infrastructure to support the idea of a province, especially when they controlled it for so long.
Yes, egypt had a history with canaan, which peoples travelled to and fro: this is recorded in the OT, whereby Abraham and his wife visited Egypt well before Joseph was born. Egypt did not speak hebrew, which indicates this was a new/different language in this region; it was also not spoken in Mesopotamia. The hebrew language and monotheism was a suspicious thing in this spacetime, which conflicted with divine kings and the absence of laws. The latter can be a valid reason why the eight kingdoms of Canaan rejected Israel and barred her entry; it is akin to promoting democracy in a lawless area of dictators.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Reding, posted 07-19-2007 10:51 AM Reding has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Reding, posted 07-20-2007 11:35 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 60 of 175 (411280)
07-19-2007 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
07-18-2007 9:22 AM


Re: another really stupid assertion.
It is also a really stupid attempt to rebut the issue of why there are no records of Hebrew's in Egypt or of some event similar to what is described in the Exodus Myth.
Why don't you attempt to answer the question? There are no Egyptian records of the Plagues (excluding Ipuwer) or the Exodus because Egypt was destroyed and ANE do not record defeats - remember?
Why would any scribe record that which Egypt wanted to forget? The absence of recording, logically, fully supports the Biblical account.
One thing the Egyptian Pharaohs DID do is record their ascendancy. If there was any truth to the Exodus Myth, we should see a NEW Pharaoh ascending to the throne recorded. Unfortunately for the Exodus really happened crowd, that evidence just taint there.
So far there has NEVER been found any of the needed support that the Exodus ever happened.
Giant straw man: "If it happened there would be a record."
Show me any Egyptian record that records a defeat?
BTW: Jar claims to be a Christian, please do not mistake his anti-Bible views for an Atheist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 07-18-2007 9:22 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 07-19-2007 9:44 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 75 by Reding, posted 07-20-2007 8:20 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
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