The Problem of Evil

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I usually don't have the capacity to verbally defend what I believe in so I just ask questions, instead.

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Tel,Yes, the socratic method, I was slow to make that identification but you do it well.The namaste greeting is Hindu.Anime refers to japanese animated cartoons. I like your avatar. I'm wondering if you have a link to that page? I'd like to learn more about the artist.Do you play Neverwinter Nights? Tel Rinsiel is perhaps your characters name?lfen

To Tel Rinsiel:Thank you for your reply.Reply to your post: Not only that, but it also eliminates the concept of free will that was supposedly granted, but logically impossible from the assumptions.

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"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

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So God plans everything and everything that will happen is already known by Him since He's omniscient... so, in the Revelations, the eternal suffering of all the supposed sinners after the apocalypse is still a part of His "Divine Plan"? Sigh, that seems so harsh and do not sound divine at all.

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Tel,Suffering and evil are not trivial problems particularly when they are horrific.My superficial misunderstanding of Hinduism goes something like this. God imagines/dreams up/conceives the universe in all it's complexity.
This creation is conscious, god's consciousness, that is all there is and this conscious identifies with the beings dreamed up.Evil is part of this drama as is goodness etc.I love Shakespeare's plays. Great drama insues and the actors love and dispair, find fulfillment and defeat. When the play is over can it be said that the actors suffered or was the suffering the dream imagination of Shakespeare?In this way of looking at life, the universe, and everything it happens that consciousness gets caught up in identifying the dream role as real. It's like an actor who plays Romeo getting so caught up in the play that they believe they are Romeo and that Juliet is dead and then they becomes agonizingly depressed. Someone needs to get their attention and remind them they are not Romeo that was just a role they were playing.Suffering and evil end just as pleasure and goodness end. They were powerful plot constructions,but the power of being-consciousness remains.

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You do look, my son, in a moved sort,
As if you were dismay'd: be cheerful, sir.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors,
As I foretold you, were all spirits and
Are melted into air, into thin air:
And, like the baseless fabric of this vision,
The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
Ye all which it inherit, shall dissolve
And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff
As dreams are made on, and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep.

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Shakespeare, The Tempest, Act IV

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I hope that you might find as I do profound insights in the words of Shakespeare. I wonder what question you will ask of this view?lfen

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Anime refers to japanese animated cartoons. I like your avatar. I'm wondering if you have a link to that page? I'd like to learn more about the artist.

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Do you play Neverwinter Nights? Tel Rinsiel is perhaps your characters name?

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I can't recall the address of the site but I'll try to look it up.The name Tel Rinsiel... oh, it's the name of a character (a Light Elf) from a longer than short story that I'm currently trying to write despite my lethargy.

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You do look, my son, in a moved sort,
As if you were dismay'd: be cheerful, sir.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors,
As I foretold you, were all spirits and
Are melted into air, into thin air:
And, like the baseless fabric of this vision,
The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
Ye all which it inherit, shall dissolve
And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff
As dreams are made on, and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep.
Shakespeare, The Tempest, Act IV

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I hope that you might find as I do profound insights in the words of Shakespeare. I wonder what question you will ask of this view?

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I wouldn't have a question if that's the true case since the issue of the "Problem of Evil" will not be relevant anymore. If evil is thought up by a God as part of the whole plot of the play which is about our lives and universe, then there'd be no point in asking if evil was created by Him or not.Wait, is that the belief sytem of Hinduism? Don't they have many gods?

Hmmm... yes, I missed that one -the concept of freewill-. So, could we say that the moment a baby is born, God already knows whether his/her soul is bound to go to heaven or hell no matter what decisions in life he/she takes?Wait, does God create new souls for each baby that is about to be born?

Tel Rinsiel is a great name for an elf. Yes Hinduism has many gods. As far as I know they are quite happy if someone wants to worship Jesus. But depending on the level of sophistication of the believer those gods are a focus to develop faith and develop interests beyond the bodily pleasure. Brahman who is more like the christian concept of the godhead is the source of the gods and everything else. And the idea is that the consciousness that sees the world and the gods and mistakes itself for thoughts, feelings, bodies is not other than Brahman itself only in a state of being caught in illusion. A classic analogy is that Brahman is the ocean and you and I are waves that think our identity is our wave shape but really our identity is we are water we are a pattern in the ocean of water, arising and then returning to the ocean. I'm not a scholar of hinduism so this is my less than authentic understanding.lfen

To Tel Rinsiel: Actually, I would prostulate that the "knowing" part occurred much much earlier. Way before God created anything (prior to creation), God already knew the fate of every single baby - what they will do, how they will do it, why they will choose to do it, what will happen to them after they die, etc.As a matter of fact, since human is one of God's many creations, it follows logically that God has specifically made every single person in a distinct way such that they will each face their own unique consequences/fate. There is no free will, so whatever we face is independent of any decisions that we make - our fates are predetermined. No idea, but it is logical that He must. Since soul is one of those things that is unique to the individual, and it may be assumed that souls aren't normally destroyed (not even through torment in hell), thus baby's souls are probably not recycled from the dead who have released their own souls.

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"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

Some might believe that but not all Christians. For example, I personally believe GOD is capable of being all knowning yet most likely is not all knowing. I believe GOD got things started, created a few basic rules and is sitting back watching what happens. I don't think mankind is some special creation, some favored child. Rather, GOD has been as excited, surprised and amazed by evolution and what has happened as we are.As to evil, I imagine that it dissappoints GOD just as it would any of us.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Double Post - See Message 100 for content.This message has been edited by AdminPD, 03-10-2006 07:20 AM

I read all your replies/comments, and so mine will be a general reply.When we strongly believe in something and no one seems to support us, we tend to deviate from the trend and establish our own. When we have big problems and nothing we can do to solve it, we tend to lost our faith, like most people do. Or, if we overfed ourselves with recognitions and praises, we tend to break the rules and became "hard headers."Remember that the first proponent of "evil" was Lucifer. He was one of the "archangels" who received a high position in the Heavenly Kingdom. He was called the "Morning Star" or the "Light Bringer" who supposed to lead the other angels for a heavenly purpose. But because of the "free will" he failed to do so.So, we can now designate a point how evil came to limelight; it is because of "free will." But what is "free will" then?Free will is the absolute autonomy of both man and spirit in decision-makings. It is an independent administration of one’s decision which is being justified by its execution. Free will is maybe a right that all entities are enjoying, and is "beyond the control of God," but it must be distinguished from freedom because the latter is just a component in the execution of the first.Free will is a gift to all creations from the very moment they became what they are. It enables them to pushthrough on their assigned tasks. It is the prime essence of life. It makes life so purposeful because it gives every entity the absolute power to decide for themselves.Now, in the programs of God, He also made laws for His creations. Why? Because God knew that what He was doing were all on "expiremental stages" and certain "rules/limitations" must be established in order to satisfactorily reach His objectives. Without the rules He may not perfected the plan.So, what is "evil" then? The word "evil" is not the same as "devil." Evil is the state/condition/classification of an action which implies a blatant violation of the laws of God. The "devil" on the other hand is a term which refers to the "proponent of evil acts." At first, the word "lucifer" doesn't imply a "devilish" connotation but with "angelic" significance. It was only after "Lucifer" had committed his sin when the term/word became what it means now.Of course, God created everything with good purposes. It is only during the process of "maturation" of His creations when certain "unaviodable" circumstances occur. Why? Because of the "Law of Nature" which is also the very force responsible for the maturation of His creations.

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So God plans everything and everything that will happen is already known by Him since He's omniscient... so, in the Revelations, the eternal suffering of all the supposed sinners after the apocalypse is still a part of His "Divine Plan"? Sigh, that seems so harsh and do not sound divine at all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Man's wisdom is limited. Please read the "Parable of the Sower" in the Bible. It may help you understand the "nature" of God.

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What is evil? The absence of God.
  —Jasonb

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I was always under the impression that the absence of god was the definition of sorrow, or some such thing.If evil is the absence of god, how do you explain the horrible atrocities committed by Christianity in honor of god(who was obviously in their hearts and minds)?Free Will, the right to make our own choices. Why would god give us the ability knowing that many of us would choose the so called "wrong" choice, it's like giving a child a loaded handgun and not expecting him to shoot himself or someone else.Life is not a test from god, it's a survey to see what we will do. We can't be punished for our choices in life no matter how disagreeable they are to others because we did exactly what we were meant to, we were simply ourselves.I was me, and you were you. That's all god really needs from us, to be who we are. Even believing this I don't go out and murder, rape or pillage at will because it's not who I am.

If one calls themself Jewish, they may well be so by birth and/or by nationality. A Christian is not a Christian by birth, adaptation, simple communion (if done ritualistically) or education.A Christian becomes a Christian by surrender to the holy Spirit and through the impartation of the Spirit.Not everyone is a Christian who says they are. Humans are often misled by themselves and by their obvious failure to acknowledge the very God they claim to honor. Professing themselves wise, they become fools.

The problem with the term 'Lucifer' is that the only place it is used it is in Isaiah, and is refering to King Nebbeznezzer. It literally means 'Dawn star' or 'Morning star'.From the 'Old testament', there is no biblical support to say that 'lucifer' is satan.

Why not?How could that be determined?What does that have to do with the Problem of Evil?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion