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Author | Topic: Jesus Was Not A Sacrifice To Forgive Sins | |||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
He does when he talks to me. About all I ever hear is, "Well, looks like you screwed up again, Bubba."
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I'm not seeing the clear statement or how sacrifice should be in the future. The only real propitiation for our sins is repentance and continued right behavior.
Ezekiel 18:21-22 But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. Repentance and continuing to do right behavior is what saved the wicked man, not a sacrifice.
Ezekiel 18:24 But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. No sacrifice will atone for his sins, only repentance as seen above. Jesus preached repentance, not sacrifice. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Been there heard that one!
But was God talking about something you had done in the past or something you were going "screw up" in the future? Could it have been about something your children are going to "screw up" in the future? I pretty much knew that what I had "screwed up" had already happened. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I'm not seeing the clear statement or how sacrifice should be in the future. Sacrifice, meaning the older traditional religous sacrifice, killing something, burning something, or contributing something, hasn't been needed since Jesus died. Sacrifice, as I mentioned, where someone love others as himself, will hopefully always be with us.
The only real propitiation for our sins is repentance and continued right behavior. Actually, in the Christian church, Jesus was the full and complete propitiation and oblation for our sins. Sacrifice does continue though. Here is a section from the The Great Thanksgiving Rite One.
All glory be to thee, Almighty God, our heavenly Father, for that thou, of thy tender mercy, didst give thine only Son Jesus Christ to suffer death upon the cross for our redemption; who made there, by his one oblation of himself once offered, a full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for the sins of the whole world; and did institute, and in his holy Gospel command us to continue, a perpetual memory of that his precious death and sacrifice, until his coming again. But then it goes on to say:
And here we offer and present unto thee, O Lord, our selves, our souls and bodies, to be a reasonable, holy, and living sacrifice unto thee; humbly beseeching thee that we, and all others who shall be partakers of this Holy Communion, may worthily receive the most precious Body and Blood of thy Son Jesus Christ, be filled with thy grace and heavenly benediction, and made one body with him, that he may dwell in us, and we in him. In otherwords, we agree to try to live our lives as laid out in the two Great Commandments. Notice it says "Living sacrifice". We agree to try.
And although we are unworthy, through our manifold sins, to offer unto thee any sacrifice, yet we beseech thee to accept this our bounden duty and service, not weighing our merits, but pardoning our offences, through Jesus Christ our Lord; We know that we are unlikely to succeed, but we will, and hopefully do, try. But before we even get to that point, we must first acknowledge, and repent whatever sins we may have done.
Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against thee in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved thee with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. For the sake of thy Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in thy will, and walk in thy ways, to the glory of thy Name. Amen. And have those sins forgiven.
The Bishop when present, or the Priest, stands and says Almighty God, our heavenly Father, who of his great mercy hath promised forgiveness of sins to all those who with hearty repentance and true faith turn unto him, have mercy upon you, pardon and deliver you from all your sins, confirm and strengthen you in all goodness, and bring you to everlasting life; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen. Notice that although the Bishop or Priest says the forgivness, it is done by GOD directly. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
But was God talking about something you had done in the past Most likely.
or something you were going "screw up" in the future? Without a doubt.
Could it have been about something your children are going to "screw up" in the future? Yup, see Message 34 Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:My point being that it wasn't needed before he died either. quote:Exactly! That's what Ezekiel 18 was saying. The act of repenting, refraining from wrong behavior and doing right behavior is what God wants. (Sorry got interrupted so I'll have to finish my thoughts on sin offering later.) A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
My point being that it wasn't needed before he died either. If you are talking about the traditional religious sacrifice, I would agree. In fact, I would say that the story of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus simply highlighted, and affirmed that point of view. But that does not negate the second form of sacrifice that I mentioned. If you go back to the early editions of the BCP, you find that the charge and commitment has remained pretty constant. From the 1662 BCP
After shall be said as followeth. O LORD and heavenly Father, we thy humble servants entirely desire thy fatherly goodness mercifully to accept this our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving; most humbly beseeching thee to grant, that by the merits and death of thy Son Jesus Christ, and through faith in his blood, we and all thy whole Church may obtain remission of our sins, and all other benefits of his passion. And here we offer and present unto thee, 0 Lord, ourselves, our souls and bodies, to be a reasonable, holy, and lively sacrifice unto thee; humbly beseeching thee, that all we, who are partakers of this holy Communion, may be fulfilled with thy grace and heavenly benediction. And although we be unworthy, through our manifold sins, to offer unto thee any sacrifice, yet we beseech thee to accept this our bounden duty and service; not weighing our merits, but pardoning our offences, through Jesus Christ our Lord; by whom, and with whom, in the unity of the Holy Ghost, all honour and glory be unto thee, 0 Father Almighty, world without end. Amen. and from the 1979 BCP
And we earnestly desire thy fatherly goodness mercifully to accept this our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving; most humbly beseeching thee to grant that, by the merits and death of thy Son Jesus Christ, and through faith in his blood, we, and all thy whole Church, may obtain remission of our sins, and all other benefits of his passion. And here we offer and present unto thee, O Lord, our selves,our souls and bodies, to be a reasonable, holy, and living sacrifice unto thee; humbly beseeching thee that we, and all others who shall be partakers of this Holy Communion, may worthily receive the most precious Body and Blood of thy Son Jesus Christ, be filled with thy grace and heavenly benediction, and made one body with him, that he may dwell in us, and we in him. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:The Hebrew word translated vain in the version I provided is "Sheqer". From Strong's1. lie, deception, disappointment, falsehood a. deception (what deceives or disappoints or betrays one) b. deceit, fraud, wrong 1. fraudulently, wrongfully (as adverb) c. falsehood (injurious in testimony) 1. testify falsehood, false oath, swear falsely d. falsity (of false or self-deceived prophets) e. lie, falsehood (in general) 1. false tongue f. in vain The word for vain as you are using the word is "shav".1. emptiness, vanity, falsehood a. emptiness, nothingness, vanity b. emptiness of speech, lying c. worthlessness (of conduct) Here are variations of the same verse:
Complete Jewish Bible
How can you say, We are wise; Adonai's Torah is with us, when in fact the lying pen of the scribes has turned it into falsehood? Modern Language
How dare you say, We are wise, and the teaching of the Lord is with us? But see, the falsifying pen of the scribes made it into a fabrication. Living Bible
How can you say, We understand his laws, when your teachers have twisted them up to mean a thing I never said? Revised Standard
How can you say, We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. New American Standard
How can you say, We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie. King James Version How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 612 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Well,
Assuming he existed, he could have been 1) A preacher caught up in the political intrige of the Romans vs the Jewish population. 2) A failed messiah 3) Totally misunderstood by the people who wrote about him in the Gospels. Remember, to the Jewish population, the messiah was going to bea spiritual/military leader who frees them forgien occupation, and establishes a time of peace, prosperity and Torah as the acknowledged path to God, and the scattered jews brought home to Israel. The Messiah was not going to be an incarnation of God. Also, to the Jewish population, God had promised NEVER to need a human scrafice again (as a promise to Abraham, by supplying the ram to sacrifice, instead of his son).
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ramoss Member (Idle past 612 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Of course, the whole concept of origianl sin is very pagan, and comes from the misreading of Paul's concepts by Saint Augustine.
So, let's look at the concept as you have declared it. God makes Mankind, puts him/her in a garden totally ignorante of consequences, and set man up to disobey him. He then kicks him out ofthe guarden so he would not live forever after the sting operation. Man follows gods commandment, and multiples and covers the earth, but pisses God off, so God deciedes to start over again with a small group, and kills everyone else off. God then sends down himself, as himself, so he can sacrifice himself to himself so that he can lift the curse of death and let everyone whoknows the secret magic words to live forever. amen. Doesn't sound too reasonable to me.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 612 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Well, in the Jewish tradition, there was sacrifice for asking god for being forgiven, and also sacrifices to thank god for when things are going good.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 612 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Assuming your assertion is true, the people who wrote and read the bible are bond by time, and the bible is not for god, but for them. The bible is to make sense to the people who read it, and wrote it.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
God then sends down himself, as himself, so he can sacrifice himself to himself so that he can lift the curse of death and let everyone who knows the secret magic words to live forever. amen. Not true. God the father is Jehovah. The son of God, Jehovah is Jesus. It was Jesus, the son of Jehovah, the father who was condemed by Pilot and crucified, becoming the sacrificial propitiation for sin. All the while Jesus was on the cross the father Jehovah was still sitting on the throne of the universe in Heaven. You need to get this straight. I understand your missgivings though on this, because many Christian preachers do not understand this and teach it wrong. Jesus is always referred to as the Son of God in the NT. He often referred to his father as God and called upon him as his God on the cross.
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Aurelie Inactive Member |
I must apologize for this entry being overdue but I was out of town when this topic was finally released.
In order to hold the belief that God didn't approve of sacrifices, you would also have to believe that the Bible contradicts itself. With the amount of Scripture given regarding how to perform sacrifices (Exodus 27:1-8; 29:38-46; 30:1-10; 38:1-17; Leviticus 1-9; 16; Numbers 15:1-31; 28; 29 etc... etc...) it's hard to see how one can come to the conclusion that God didn't require sacrifices. You quoted Isaiah 1:1, 11-17 placing special emphasis on verses 11 and 17.
quote: In order to comprehend the meaning of these texts, it is imperative that one notices the context in which it is written. At the time when Isaiah had this vision, the Israelites had began to neglect God. Indication of this is given in verses 3 and 4:
quote: The Israelites weren't obeying the word of the Lord, therefore, He said in verse 11:
quote: He's asking them, what pupose is it to offer sacrifices when you're not even trying to obey me, when you willfully sin against me, why are you asking for my pardon? He said that He was full (or as some often say, sick and tired) of the offerings, that were rendered meaningless by their actions. He no longer delighted in it. He prefers to have obedience than sacrifice, as He says in 1 Samuel 15:22:
quote: As far as in verse 17, you're right, we are to help others. Notice, though, that verse 17 comes after verse 16, in which, He is encouraging them to stop their evil ways:
quote: And then comes verse 17:
quote: Looking at Isaiah 66:3:
quote: As if is always used to anticipate a metaphore. Therefore, we can conclude that God is speaking metaphorically. GOD REQUIRED:THEY OFFERED: THEIR OWN WAYS/ ABOMINATIONS Ox (Deut. 18:3) AS IF Slew a man Lamb (Lev. 14:12) AS IF Cut a dog's neck Oblation (Lev. 3:1) AS IF Offered (unclean) swine's blood Incense (Ex. 30:7) AS IF Blessed an idol Whether God required an ox, lamb, oblation or incense, the people did it as if they slew a man, cut a dog's neck, offered unclean swine (Lev. 11:7), or blessed an idol. They did it with an unrepentant spirit. Instead of using the time of offering to be honestly repentant, they looked forward to it as a game. Isaiah 66:4 shows that once again, God had been displeased by their formalism:
quote: In reference to Jeremiah 7:22; once again, the same principle is applicable. By reading Jeremiah 7:8-10, 19-21; 24-30 you see where God is displeased with them. God would rather have obedience than sacrifice. He didn't command them to offer sacrifices just to be offering sacrifices but rather as an atonement for sin. He would rather have them obey than offer sacrifices, Jeremiah 7:23:
quote: You said:
quote: Absolutely... not. In fact, in reading the verse it explains why He says that they went backward and not forward. It was because they "hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart", hence they went backward and not foward. God would rather have His people obey than offer sacrifices and meaninglessly go through the forms of a religion. A true-hearted Christian is what God wants. In regard to Jeremiah 8:7-8, it does not say that they were tampering with God's word. No one needs to doubt about this. God was the one speaking in Jeremiah 8:7, which says:
quote: But , in Jeremiah 8:8, God is asking them how they were able to say the things which they did. He was quoting them :
quote: Moving right along... past all of the verses taken out of context
quote: That is a way to show your sorrow for your sin, but without the blood of Christ, there can be no atonement for our sins. (Heb. 9:22)
quote: Have you read Isaiah 53 or Psalms 22? Both of those are prophecies of the coming Messiah that had to die to save His people. Whenever people agree with me, I always feel that I must be wrong.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ramoss writes: All people are mortal. the people who wrote and read the bible are bound by time, and the bible is not for god, but for them. The bible is to make sense to the people who read it, and wrote it.NIV writes: So, I agree that the Bible was written by men for men. This topic is interesting! Purple Dawn, should our focus be on the meaning of the Bible as a book? Should it be on Jesus?
James 4:14=Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.purpledawn writes: Yet many scriptures challenge that assumption. Ifen states the issue a bit further:
I contend that the death of Jesus was not an atonement sacrifice to pay for the sins of humanity.Ifen writes: For this question, the ball is clearly in the topic authors court. Personally, I believe that Jesus was Gods "get out of jail free" card offered to all of humanity.The jail, of course, is spiritual. From a Dispensationalist perspective, the Bible is written in such a way that the book is not written to everyone. From the Fall to the Law, the book was written to pagans. From the Law until the middle of Acts, the book was written to Jews. From Mid Acts until the Rapture, the book is written to the non-Jewish believers which make up the Christian Church. After the Rapture, the book is once again addressing Jewish people. God never changes. He is always the same. I wonder if purpledawn will be able to construct another interpretation of this. If Jesus was not a sacrifice to forgive sins, what was he?But this unchanging God has different ways of dealing with different men throughout the course of history. God deals with different men at different times in different ways! God did not deal with the Apostle Paul in the same way that He dealt with Abraham. God was merciful to both of these men and God saved both of these men and God will spend eternity with both of these men, but God did not deal with these two men in the same way. These two men lived at different times in history and they had different responsibilities and obligations before God. The same could be said about Noah and Solomon. God dealt differently with these two men. Noah's responsibility was to build an ark. Solomon lived hundreds of years later and his responsibility was to build a temple. God reveals His truth to men gradually and not all at once. God revealed certain things to Adam, but there were many things that God did not reveal to him. Later God revealed even more things to Abraham. Later in history God revealed even more things to Moses and to David. When Jesus walked this earth He revealed certain things to His disciples which had never been revealed to Old Testament believers. NIV writes: Jesus is addressing Jewish disciples. He is telling them that the Holy Spirit will be the teacher once Jesus is gone. Lets get back to what ramoss said: John 16:12-14= "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.The bible is to make sense to the people who read it, and wrote it. This differs for each individual at their point in time. If we could ask various personalities within the Bible about the Bible, what might they say?
QUESTION: What kind of a Bible do you have?
Adam: "I had no Bible at all, but I walked with God in the cool of the garden."Abraham:"I had no Bible at all, but at different times God would appear to me and speak to me." Moses: "My Bible contained 5 books—Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy" King David:"My Bible contained the same 5 books that Moses had as well as Joshua and Judges and many of the Psalms which I wrote, etc." Ezra: "My Bible contained most of the Old Testament books but not all of them"(Of course, Ezra would not know that more books were to come!) John the Baptist: "My Bible contained all of the Old Testament books but none of the New Testament books" (John was Jewish, and the entire O.T. was written to him! He was also a prophet. Apostle Paul: "My Bible contained the Old Testament books and most of the New Testament books but not all of them" (He wrote the N.T. part) John, the Disciple whom Jesus loved:"My Bible contained all of the Old Testament books and all of the New Testament books. Shortly before I died God used me to write the last New Testament book." Different rules for different people at different points in time! Does this make sense? Consider the rules for three kids born to the same Dad with different ages. Some could stay out late, others could not. Some could drive, others could not. Now look at three Biblical figures: Noah (after the flood)He had the privilege and responsibility of believing what God had said. He had the privilege of walking with God (Gen. 6:9). He had the responsibility of obeying God (compare Heb. 11:7). The murderer should be put to death (Genesis 9:6). Animals should be sacrificed to God (Genesis 8:20). God did not tell him to keep the Sabbath or to circumcise male children or to baptize believers in water. --------------------------------------------- David (under the law of Moses) He had the privilege and responsibility of believing what God had said (and he knew more about what God said than Noah did). He had the privilege of walking with God. He had the responsibility of obeying God (Deut. 8:1). The murderer should be put to death (Exodus 21:12). Animals should be sacrificed to God (Leviticus 1-5). God told him to keep the Sabbath and to circumcise male children (Deut. 5:12-14 and Leviticus 12:3). God did not tell him to baptize believers in water. ------------------------------------------------------- Paul (a New Testament believer under grace) He had the privilege and responsibility of believing what God had said (and he knew more about what God said than Noah or David). He had the privilege of walking with God. He had the responsibility of obeying God (1 John 2:3-5). The murderer should be put to death (Romans 13:1-4). Animal sacrifices are no longer necessary (Hebrews 10). God did not tell him to keep the Sabbath or circumcise male children. God did tell him to baptize believers in water (Matthew 28:19-20). ----------------------------------------------------------------- Different rules at different points in time. purpledawn writes: True. He wanted relationship with His people. Not ritual. The scriptures quoted in the OT show that God did not demand or require the sacrifices to forgive sin or watch over the Israelites. He had no use for the sacrifices. They served no purpose. He wanted people to live in harmony.General Nazort writes: So, the question that we ask ourselves is this: Who was Isaiah talking to? Even Jesus said that He came only for the Jews. You ignored the tons of passages where god commands sacrifices. THe passage you did quote from are where God is angry at them for not really taking the sacrifices seriously.Matt 15:21-28=Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs." "Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour. So, clearly, Jesus honored the requested prayers from a non Jew, even though He said"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
So what about Paul? Writing more books after the Messiah came?Gal 2:8= For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles. So says Paul. Was Paul sincere? A true inspired man of faith? Or was he a mere scammer? Read the books and see what you think!
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