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Member (Idle past 5934 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Satan and prayer | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
lfen Member (Idle past 4704 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
Or could it be that you are in agreement with contracycle in that we merely need an evolved, pragmatic, classless government and then everyone will behave! I say....[NOT!] As point of clarification I do not believe "we merely need an evolved ... government".
Christianity, abused by many throughout History, is still more of a belief of hope rather than a mere tool of capitalism. I wouldn't object to you citing that Christianity has been abused by many if you also would include that it has abused many. I'm not sure how to compute the score but after Constantine it made up for lost time and has had approximately 1500 years to abuse, slaughter etc. a lot of heretics and non believers (and the belief that it's victims were somehow in league with Satan has often been offered as a rational for all the killing and torture). It's obviously hundreds of years older than capitalism so I'm not saying it's merely a tool only that is has been and is being used as a tool, among other uses. I'm not saying that that is its prime use or anything. I know that there are christians whose faith leads them to actively fight evil in this world. Nuns and Priests were tortured and killed in Guatamala for trying to help the people. So I'm not saying that Christianity is just a tool, or always a tool just pointing out when it's being misused.
But what is it that causes these sources to behave badly? Wrong form of government? Too much time on their hands? Human nature? If that is so, I assert Original Sin. The problem with solutions of the type "Original Sin" and "Satan did it" is that it removes the problem to mythical times, realms, and forces. The evil we deal with occurs in this world by agencies present in this world, humans, germs, disasters. We need to study and understand these agencies. Solutions won't come about by praying for or against Satan. Satan is only a concept of the cause. The research being done on the brain and behaviour right now offers the beginnings of real understanding of why humans do what they do. It is a shame we don't study criminals like Ted Bundy, or John Gacy, doing brain scans etc., just disposing of them doesn't contribute to understanding the real nature of the problem. And however hopeful Christianity is with a belief in original sin and Satan and prayer it offers hope in the future in another world i.e. life in heaven after death. How does that help with problems that people have to solve in this life in this world? Those are the tasks rationality and science are working on. Praying for or against Satan is just a pointless activity, a fantasy, well maybe it gives pleasure or meaning of some sort. But to effect change we need to use science, data, evidence, experimentation. lfen
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Ifen writes: The deciding factor is the human decision making process. We create our own chess game in this spiritual struggle. The struggle is an absolute reality to some of us, yet by this admission, we set ourselves up for embarrassment. Remember the Proctor&Gamble hoax?Humor & Whimsy
Then God chose to create a universe in which he could struggle against an opponent power, so he created Satan as his opponent and uses human beings as the game pieces? Earth is then God and Satan's gameboard, only God knows from the beginning he will win, so how much fun is that to play?
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: |
And however hopeful Christianity is with a belief in original sin and Satan and prayer it offers hope in the future in another world i.e. life in heaven after death. How does that help with problems that people have to solve in this life in this world? Those are the tasks rationality and science are working on. You pit rationality and science as the opposite. But I ask you now, if you were to love your enemy and neighbour completely, and everybody you know, also done this - aswell as the world, what problems would there be? Only a few left for science I would bet! To dismiss Christ's teachings of peace is silly. It motivates presently - a VAST number of people, to do peaceful acts. RATHER I would say, that praying has done us believers only good. We have prayed, yes - and received. So I am not against science, but the fact is that you tout past events and horrors upon us, of which we have not even bare witness with our eyes. Did you not know that governments and mafias are BOTH worldly interests? They pursue NOT the Kingdom of God. Now tell me - you do atleast know who the prince of this world is right? The same guy who offered Christ kingdoms OF the world. We are not being played. Do you count us as fools? Do not be so obtuse as to buy into religious steryotypes that play you like a fiddle~. A great and devilish veil is upon you Ifen . And we are not even disputing the physical/scientific truths to evils! This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 09-10-2004 01:34 PM
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lfen Member (Idle past 4704 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
The deciding factor is the human decision making process. We create our own chess game in this spiritual struggle. "We create" meaning humans create a spiritual chess game? Or are we playing the game God created for us? Understanding we are speaking metaphorically here. But what is decided? Some christians at least seem to hold that the outcome has been prophesied, which means to me the fix is in and was from the get go. What puzzles me is why God wants to play a game that has a certain outcome? I mean I have some idea. I played Final Fantasy X with my niece and enjoyed it even though with the help of internet walkthroughs we knew we would eventually win, it was the getting there that was novel. But if God is omniscient there is no novelty. Perhaps this whole universe is a dream God is having? Or put another way, the universe and everything in it is a thought, or fantasy God has dreamed up? And as the great authors know a good story requires a good villian, perhaps Satan is a dramatis personae in God's dream, kind of like the villian in FFX that we had to defeat? lfen
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lfen Member (Idle past 4704 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
You pit rationality and science as the opposite. But I ask you now, if you were to love your enemy and neighbour completely, and everybody you know, also done this - aswell as the world, what problems would there be? Only a few left for science I would bet! To dismiss Christ's teachings of peace is silly. It motivates presently - a VAST number of people, to do peaceful acts. I like this point very much and agree with you. I do wish there wasn't so much contradiction in the books of the Bible because the teachings of bringing a sword and such create conflicts, but what I find to be the best of Christianity is very good.
So I am not against science, but the fact is that you tout past events and horrors upon us, of which we have not even bare witness with our eyes. I do that to balance out the tendency of christians to adopt the innocent martyr role based on a few periods in history and to leave out the larger chunks of history when it was the church doing the persecutions. I don't think this is unique to Christianity and I disagree with claiming anything special based on the persecutions in Rome or where ever else.
Now tell me - you do at least know who the prince of this world is right? Sure, Bill Gates! (just joking, well, only kinda, actually ...?) Literally there is no office "Prince of this World". But I know some? many? almost all? Christians would say Satan is prince of this world. But if you can't establish the actuality of Satan, it doesn't matter how many offices an imaginary demon holds. It's like "If we had bacon, we could have bacon and eggs, if we had eggs."
We are not being played. Do you count us as fools? Do not be so obtuse as to buy into religious stereotypes that play you like a fiddle~. A great and devilish veil is upon you Ifen . Not sure how you define fool. I count you as someone who finds such personal satisfaction in believing the christian story that you are willing to set aside science, rationality, logic, and fact in order to have faith that that story is really really true. I wouldn't judge that decision as foolish, but it can lead to foolishness such as those who repeatedly claim in the absence of evidence and in the presence of myriad falsifications that nonetheless there really was a world wide flood because the Bible says so. Correct me if I've misunderstood you, but I will assume this "devilish veil" that is upon me refers my unwillingness to join you in making believe that the Bible is a full true factual inerrant account of the absolute reality of this universe. lfen
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: |
I like this point very much and agree with you. I do wish there wasn't so much contradiction in the books of the Bible I suppose you can find contradictions if you want to. But a literal reading will ofcourse bring them. For example, the lamb of God - is it literally a lamb? Ofcourse not. But rather, when we use the bible for what it's meant for; Prophecies, and the necessity of a walk with God, and the spirit revealing the meanings thereof, then you'll find these contradictions are esteemed highly, by the quote minor, but not the wisdom seeker.
I do that to balance out the tendency of christians to adopt the innocent martyr role based on a few periods in history and to leave out the larger chunks of history when it was the church doing the persecutions. Well, yes - good point. Only one is good, God. And I won't even dare mention this "church" as it is an alien to me. Yet I am also sinful.
But if you can't establish the actuality of Satan, it doesn't matter how many offices an imaginary demon holds Well, we establish that evil is evidence of satan, but convincing you guys that 1. Evil exists, and 2. The owner of it does also, is a hard task.
Not sure how you define fool. I count you as someone who finds such personal satisfaction in believing the christian story that you are willing to set aside science, rationality, logic, and fact in order to have faith that that story is really really true. Science, I accept it. Rationality, I can also know about reality. Logic, I know many modus ponens. These are assumptions Ifen. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and presume that you think I am a creationismist.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
No, Satan exsists on a plane simliar to God's if not the same. When he created it all, he was generous enough to give us all free will, including satan. So Satan's choice could have been at, or in a time, or without time, so we can't understand it. However it was made, and in the end, we will be victorious.
So life is all about choices, you should know that, you choose a non-revealed religion. Every single thing we could possibly think about is related to whether it is for God's glory or not, good or bad. You cannot make a descion without including this. Clearly evidence of of the battle between God and Satan. Even though its subjective, it is overwhelming. When I say the whole thing, I am refering to our life after the fall.
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lfen Member (Idle past 4704 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
I probably was thinking you were a creationist, they do seem to dominate the Bible side of debates here that I tend to get geared to answering their point of view.
What is your view on the age of the universe and evolution then? lfen
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5934 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
MTW
But I ask you now, if you were to love your enemy and neighbour completely, and everybody you know, also done this - aswell as the world, what problems would there be? Pretty much as it is now.What makes you think it would be otherwise?
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Here is the story of Flight 93 retold:
http://www.post-gazette.com/.../20011028flt93mainstoryp7.asp As most of you know, there was a lot of life and death decisions on Flight 93, which crashed 3 years ago today. One question which I might bring to the forum is this: Were the terrorists and the passengers who chose to give their lives worshipping the same God? Obviously, as a Christian, I would say that No, they were not. The night before boarding Flight 93, in their hotel rooms, Jarrah would have opened a list of instructions, kept in a notebook that apparently was written by his old friend Atta.
One thing that I have thought about when talking to some of you who are not as "spiritual" as myself and Mike is the fact that fundamentalist mindsets are never the most stable. I will admit that this includes zealous Christians as well. But what of these passengers? They faced death as bravely as their killers. They were forced to confront the life and death issues of their faith. They acted selflessly to save lives...for they knew that the plane would probably target something in Washington D.C. Perhaps they thought that they would be victorious and not die. It instructed them to bathe, wear cologne, shave excess hair from their bodies and check the knives they carried. "You must make your knife sharp and you must not discomfort your animal during the slaughter," it read. "Completely forget something called 'this life.' The time for play is over and the serious time is upon us." At some point -- the best estimation is about 40 minutes into the flight west -- at least three of the hijackers stood up and put red bandanas around their heads. Two of them forced their way into the cockpit. One took the loudspeaker microphone, unaware it could also be heard by air traffic controllers, and announced that someone had a bomb onboard and the flight was returning to the airport. He told them he was the pilot, but spoke with an accent....It was 9:45 a.m.Somewhere outside Cleveland, United Flight 93 had made a sharp turn and began flying east, toward Washington, D.C.Sometime shortly before 10 a.m., Tom Burnett called home one last time. "A group of us is going to do something," he told Deena. "I told him, 'No, Tom, just sit down and don't draw attention to yourself,' " she said. "Deena," he told her, "If they're going to crash the plane into the ground, we have to do something. We can't wait for the authorities. We have to do something now."..."They're doing it! They're doing it! They're doing it!" she said. Lorne Lyles heard a scream. Then his wife said something he couldn't understand. Then the line went dead. I don't know if I would have been able to be as courageous as they were.
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lfen Member (Idle past 4704 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
Hi Phat,
Someone should start a 9/11 thread. I tend to be a discursive thinker and that shows in my posts, but I don't read in your post how this is connected to the topic or even to Riverrats post. Maybe you could start a 9/11 post in the proposed topics? lfen
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
I am not exactly sure why you have made this knowledge known to us in a response to what I said. But I will give you my thoughts.
They cleary were faced with a decision between good and bad. Even thought the decision included their own death possibly. It was a not a gaurantied death, but a risk worth taking knowing what they knew. I definatly would have done the same thing in a heart beat.
Were the terrorists and the passengers who chose to give their lives worshipping the same God?
Yes they were. They just weren't following God they way they were supposed to. This is niether God's fault, or the bibles, or the Koran. It was cleary the fault of man, and his weakness for Satan's will.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 638 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Well, since there is no demonstrated satan, nor god, they were doing their own will.
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Trump won  Suspended Member (Idle past 1266 days) Posts: 1928 Joined: |
Inaccurate in a biblical sense
-porcelain
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Prove it.
This is a comment from someone who doesn't even now what the bible means, or what the word repent is. Your ignorance of God, does not give you a right to claim there is none. You can say that you don't believe if you wish.
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