Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Why read the Bible literally?
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 61 of 304 (217367)
06-16-2005 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by LinearAq
06-16-2005 6:53 AM


Re: Faith and faith
GDR writes:
But I ask again, how does it make a difference to your faith whether the story is literally true or not.
LinearAq writes:
Yes, it does. Jesus, himself, seemed to give reference to Genesis ("God created them Man and Woman..." and "As it was in the days of Noah..."), and Jonah ("...except the sign of Jonah"), without any hint that he thought the stories were not true. If it can be shown that Jesus really thought that these stories were fact, then to believe that Jesus was God in flesh and infallible, you must believe the stories also.
How many times in church do you hear reference to "The Good Samaritan", or "The Prodigal Son"? Nobody believes that these stories are literally true but they are referred to in order to make some other point. Why wouldn't Jesus do the same thing? He would refer to a metaphor in Jewish scripture to make a point in the same way that he would refer to some factual event.
LinearAq writes:
This belief in the absolute fact of scripture becomes the hinge upon which your entire faith turns. Each detail must be true or your faith falls apart.
This is exactly why I am concerned about the idea that Holy Scripture should be read literally. There are so many problems that we encounter in our Christian walk with that approach to the scriptures.
1. If every word is exactly written by God as literal fact, the Bible becomes our object of worship instead of the risen Lord. How many times do you see televangelists waving around the Bible making it the focus of worship instead of the Cross?
2. You have just said that if you were to be unconvinced that the Bible was literally true your whole faith goes out the window. In the end if you decide that you can't believe that Jonah lived inside a fish for three days then the real truth of our risen Lord and his love for you is unbelievable to you as well.
3. Our children raised in churches who preach literalism are very likely to reject their faith as they reach maturity for the same reason.
4. The idea that one is required to accept what I believe to be Biblical metaphor as fact is a huge stumbling block to unbelievers.
5. How much time is wasted defending literalism, arguing about the flood or Jonah etc instead of getting on with what Christ wanted us to do which is to preach the risen Lord and to feed, clothe, house and love the least of God's children.
If the Bible is read the way I believe that God intended it is a powerful weapon in bringing peace love and harmony to this life and eternal joy in the next. Misuse of the Bible will only in the end bring about confusion and unbelief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by LinearAq, posted 06-16-2005 6:53 AM LinearAq has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 62 of 304 (217386)
06-16-2005 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Brian
06-16-2005 7:26 AM


Re: Literal reading is relatively late
The point was that the psalms themselves show the Israelites in David's time or thereabouts to be taking literally the record of the Pentateuch of their own history.
I really do not see the connection here. How can a song about Israel’s prehistory prove that all of the Israelites took the Tanakh literally? Even if they believed that there was an Exodus and Conquest, it is still a huge leap to declare that all Israelites took everything about these two events literally.
Just because someone decided to write a song about theses events (and I know it was supposed to be David) in no way demonstrates that the entire nation took everything about these events literally.
But WHO CARES about what *ALL* the Israelites, the "whole nation" thought?? The Bible is CANON, it's the OFFICIAL belief of the Israelities -- they took their history literally, and that's what this topic IS, is it not? Today's Pharisees take it all that way. Many of the Israelites might as well have been pagans you know, but the "remnant" are always the literalists, the ones who take the Bible as fundie Christians do, as the inspired word of God, believing all or it.
Why is it you feel a need to get OUTSIDE the Biblical record to see such a point?
Because that is what any historian investigating any historical event has to do. You cannot keep using a book to prove itself, it is not the way that historical investigation is done. Now the Bible claims there was a unified military conquest of Canaan, do we just accept that or do we look for external confirmation of it?
My question was really rhetorical, didn't expect an answer to it. No, there is no need to validate the Bible, it validates itself.
If external evidence shows that the conquest as narrated in the Bible text could not have happened, then what do we take as the most reliable record, primary sources that are in the archaeological data, or stories in a book written as much as 700 years after the event?
For one thing the dating is the result of modernist revisionism and I reject it. For another the archaeological data is an absurd standard for anything as all you find is what you find, and what you haven't found is the majority of it.
More later. Yes I can give you references that the Messiah was to be God but it may take a while finding them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Brian, posted 06-16-2005 7:26 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Brian, posted 06-17-2005 8:01 AM Faith has replied

dsv
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 63 of 304 (217387)
06-16-2005 12:19 PM


Faith writes:
No, there is no need to validate the Bible, it validates itself.
How does a discussion like this continue after statements like that?
This message has been edited by dsv, Thursday, June 16, 2005 12:27 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 06-16-2005 12:21 PM dsv has not replied
 Message 65 by coffee_addict, posted 06-16-2005 12:23 PM dsv has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 64 of 304 (217388)
06-16-2005 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by dsv
06-16-2005 12:19 PM


Perhaps it doesn't continue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by dsv, posted 06-16-2005 12:19 PM dsv has not replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 65 of 304 (217389)
06-16-2005 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by dsv
06-16-2005 12:19 PM


Could you please at least make it available to the rest of us who you quoted?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by dsv, posted 06-16-2005 12:19 PM dsv has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by dsv, posted 06-16-2005 12:28 PM coffee_addict has not replied

dsv
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 66 of 304 (217391)
06-16-2005 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by coffee_addict
06-16-2005 12:23 PM


Sorry, edited.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by coffee_addict, posted 06-16-2005 12:23 PM coffee_addict has not replied

LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4675 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 67 of 304 (217396)
06-16-2005 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
06-15-2005 3:23 PM


Re: Parables, symbolism and metaphor
Faith writes:
Because the days of Noah are a time identified in scripture as real and he says nothing to imply any other view of that time.
In what way are they identified as "real" above and beyond the tale of The Rich Man and Lazarus? Noah's wife doesn't even have a name.
Faith writes:
LA writes:
What indications does Jesus give that He believes the flood story is any more factual than the Prodigal Son?
The specific reference to the name of Noah for one, but only a title in the Prodigal Son. His taking for granted the knowledge of the story of Noah in his hearers as he merely extrapolates from the known situation of the flood rather than explaining it to his listeners.
In that story there are 4 people named, ok...Lazarus and Abraham are named in another parable. Is the difference about 2 more named characters?(rhetorical) Jesus used Noah's name to provide everyone a with the story without having to tell it. Like I might use the name "Luke Skywalker" to give my statement a context that the audience might understand. The story He used is just more well known.
Faith writes:
Jesus clearly makes up the second story (Rich Man & Lazarus), it's brand new, and again I'd say, like the Prodigal Son or the Good Samaritan, the fact that the Rich Man is not named is a big clue to its fictional quality.
You mean that OT Jews that obeyed the Law didn't go to Abraham's bosum? Jonah is the only name in the book of Jonah, yet you do not use that as criteria to declare it to be made up. Two participants have names in the rich man story and it is much shorter, yet you claim it is made up. Obviously the number of named people is not, in itself, criteria for story validity. What else is needed?
Faith writes:
His not contradicting the Jonah event but simply referring to it as told is what shows that it is real to my mind.
He doesn't contradict the rich man story either. I could refer to Darth Vader in a moral teaching, and not contradict the events of the Star Wars stories, without compromising the validity of the moral lesson. However, that lack of contradiction on my part does not make Star Wars a true event.
I see that you are trying to define your story validity determination criteria. I am quite interested in your methods for discernment.
edited for format, time compression and clarity...
and spelling
This message has been edited by LinearAq, 06-16-2005 12:48 PM
This message has been edited by LinearAq, 06-16-2005 12:50 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 06-15-2005 3:23 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Faith, posted 06-16-2005 1:16 PM LinearAq has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 68 of 304 (217406)
06-16-2005 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by LinearAq
06-16-2005 12:42 PM


Re: Parables, symbolism and metaphor
I see that you are trying to define your story validity determination criteria. I am quite interested in your methods for discernment.
So am I frankly. Wish I could pin it down. The distinctions are obvious to me, but it's hard to get it into words. Maybe I'll just give up trying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by LinearAq, posted 06-16-2005 12:42 PM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Chiroptera, posted 06-16-2005 1:36 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 70 by LinearAq, posted 06-16-2005 1:46 PM Faith has replied
 Message 73 by coffee_addict, posted 06-16-2005 5:09 PM Faith has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 304 (217412)
06-16-2005 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Faith
06-16-2005 1:16 PM


Re: Parables, symbolism and metaphor
Oh no, don't give up! Some of my greatest personal insights have come from my attempts to find a way to express something I thought that I understood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Faith, posted 06-16-2005 1:16 PM Faith has not replied

LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4675 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 70 of 304 (217415)
06-16-2005 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Faith
06-16-2005 1:16 PM


Don't walk away yet.
and leave us in the dark.
Think about the assumptions you make when reading particular stories both in the Bible and outside of it.
What about outside influences? Other people's opinions on the stories?
Are there any spiritual influences on you when reading? Can you describe them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Faith, posted 06-16-2005 1:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Faith, posted 06-16-2005 2:38 PM LinearAq has not replied
 Message 92 by Faith, posted 06-17-2005 2:26 AM LinearAq has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 71 of 304 (217428)
06-16-2005 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by LinearAq
06-16-2005 1:46 PM


Re: Don't walk away yet.
I'll try to think about it later. Busy for a while today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by LinearAq, posted 06-16-2005 1:46 PM LinearAq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by GDR, posted 06-16-2005 3:09 PM Faith has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 72 of 304 (217432)
06-16-2005 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Faith
06-16-2005 2:38 PM


Re: Don't walk away yet.
Hi Faith
I very much admire your determination to make the case for your faith. I think that some just like the debate, but I really sense that you are sincere in your desire to promote what you believe to be ultimate truth.
It is much easier to make an argument trying to disprove something, (in most cases), than it is to attempt to prove something correct. In fairness then I’ll outline in broad brush strokes how I think the Bible should be read and in all honesty I welcome having it pointed out to me where I am in error as I’m still struggling along trying to work life out like everybody else.
I believe that the OT is a collection of ancient myths, history, worship, revelation, parables and poetry. Incidentally when I say myth I don’t necessarily mean that it is false. A myth may be based on truth or it may be based on fiction. I believe that the OT myths such as the story of Noah etc are based on actual events but that the have been written in such a way that they are to be read in the same way that Americans read about Davy Crockett or Paul Bunyan.
As for the creation story I think the message is simply that the God of the Bible is the creator of everything and not just the Earth. (Mind you I find it interesting how closely Gen 1 is consistent with basic evolution.) I don’t happen to believe that the world is only 6000 years old but I also don’t believe that it matters in regard to our Christian walk.
I believe that the Gospels accurately depict the story of Christ and his teachings. I believe that the Gospels are correct in depicting the social Gospel that Christ taught and I also believe that they are correct in saying that Christ is the Messiah and that Christ is God incarnate. I believe in the crucifixion and the resurrection and the ascension of Christ.
In some ways I believe that we have to be careful in reading the Epistles. Many were written to specific churches and deal with specific issues in those churches. I believe that there are two key epistles. The first is Romans. Paul was writing to a well educated audience. He isn’t dealing with local issues but was writing for the population as a whole. I believe that our situation in the west is a real parallel for the audience that Paul was writing to then. In my view, if we want to understand Christian theology then we should read Romans.
The other Epistle that I believe is key is James. Simply put Romans will get your theology straight and James will tell you what to do with it. Read in conjunction with the Gospels the book of James tells how we are to put our faith into action, or in other words how we go about loving our neighbours as, (or more than), ourselves.
As for Revelation I’m afraid it mainly goes over my head. It seems to mainly be concerned with end times theology. To be honest I don’t concern myself with end times theology because I don’t see a point to it. I have enough trouble trying to be the person that Christ wants me to be today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Faith, posted 06-16-2005 2:38 PM Faith has not replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 73 of 304 (217456)
06-16-2005 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Faith
06-16-2005 1:16 PM


Re: Parables, symbolism and metaphor
Faith writes:
So am I frankly. Wish I could pin it down. The distinctions are obvious to me, but it's hard to get it into words.
The phrase "I know what I'm talking about, I just don't know how to use the right words..." are used by almost everyone I know all the time.
I'm going to have to side with one of my old philosophy professors (who is a scholar specialized in biblical translation and interpretation) when he said, "If you can't express your thoughts in coherent words, then you really don't know what you are talking about." This is the kind of self-critical analysis that helps prevent academics from making unfounded statements and assumptions. Of course, normal everyday people aren't always that disciplined and prefers using "I know what's going on, I just don't know how to use the right words..." as a shortcut.
Perhaps you would like to take a step back, take a deep breath, and try to write out your thoughts in word processor before continuing on?
I understand that sometimes things seem obvious to us even though we can't really explain it in words to others. When this happens, it usually means that it's time to take a step back and question our own beliefs.
Peace!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Faith, posted 06-16-2005 1:16 PM Faith has not replied

Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 304 (217470)
06-16-2005 8:21 PM


Last night in my reading I came across I Cor 10:
" 1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert.
6Now these things occurred as examples[a] to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry." 8We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them didand in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9We should not test the Lord, as some of them didand were killed by snakes. 10And do not grumble, as some of them didand were killed by the destroying angel.
11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall! 13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it."
It's a well known example (similar to Hebrews) where we are told that the OT was for 'our example'. But it's inescapably also explained to us that this was both real AND spiritual. Paul doesn't want us 'ignorant of the fact' that they 'passed through the sea'. But equally he mentions that 23,000 were killed in one day, that they were sexually immoral and idolators and warns us of the same temptations.
Is it not clear that the 'hard-to-believe' aspects of the Bible were BOTH real AND spiritual?
Why would anyone want to say 'those things actaully never happened' if the Bible is the book that brought the gospel of salvation to you!
This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 06-16-2005 08:22 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 06-16-2005 8:35 PM Tranquility Base has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 75 of 304 (217472)
06-16-2005 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Tranquility Base
06-16-2005 8:21 PM


Is it not clear that the 'hard-to-believe' aspects of the Bible were BOTH real AND spiritual?
Nope. In fact it's pretty clear that most of those things never happened.
Why would anyone want to say 'those things actaully never happened' if the Bible is the book that brought the gospel of salvation to you!
Because GOD gave us brains to think with, eyes to see with and a wonderful world to explore.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Tranquility Base, posted 06-16-2005 8:21 PM Tranquility Base has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Tranquility Base, posted 06-16-2005 8:41 PM jar has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024