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Author Topic:   Miracles and their Effect of Faith
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 16 of 39 (402139)
05-24-2007 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tusko
05-24-2007 4:06 PM


Tusko writes:
By the way: what do you think miracles are for if they aren't to impress (and implicitly effect belief)?
Miracles are God's way of doing things, not God's way of proselytizing.
If somebody needs feeding, we can do it or God can do it through us or God can wave his magic wand. I think you're exaggerating the significance and the frequency of the wand-waving.
If you believe they actually happened then you can't escape the fact that they would have impressed the hell out of a load of people at the time....
So, why do you jump to the conclusion that impressing the hell out of people was the reason for the miracles? Isn't that a bit like saying that Hollywood makes movies to help the popcorn industry?
... God being a canny fellow would have known this.
Steven Spielberg, being a canny fellow too, might invest in popcorn.
You might also think that the bloke who was doing these miraculous things should probably be listened to.
Not necessarily. There were probably a lot of blokes wandering around pulling rabbits out of turbans and sawing ladies in half.
For the most part, the spectacle of Jesus' miracles was secondary to the practical effect. The good that He did was probably what led people to accept His philosophy - not the fireworks.
... I assume if you are a Christian who believes the accounts, you believe there were at least some - came to the Christian faith in a very different way from anyone else since.
People "come to the Christian faith" in a lot of different ways. Some people like the hymns, some people like stained glass or incense. Some people like to see the virgin Mary in every grease stain.
None of that has anything to do with what the Christian faith is.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Tusko, posted 05-24-2007 4:06 PM Tusko has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
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Joined: 12-30-2003
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Message 17 of 39 (402141)
05-24-2007 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tusko
05-24-2007 4:06 PM


Everyday Miracles
Tusko writes:
I think God is canny and tailors his miracles to the audience. If he were to do any today, they'd have to be a lot more impressive.
For one thing, I agree with Jar in that miracles were not intended to impress anyone necessarily. Allow me to quotemine for a moment:
NIV writes:
Matt 12:38-40--Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."
He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
We need to ask ourselves why it is that people need proof? Why do they look for some confirmation of validity through a miracle? Just what is a miracle, anyway?
Dictionary writes:
  • n. - miracle -- (any amazing or wonderful occurrence)
  • n. - miracle -- (a marvelous event manifesting a supernatural act of God)
  • Ringo asked why it was any more wonderous to feed 5000 than it is to feed one. Jesus mentioned the fact that His followeres would be doing greater things than He did. Perhaps that is like a Father saying that his kids will go farther in life than he did.
    All of us deserve the customer service that Thomas received. The problem may well be that there are not enough clerks on duty!
    To you, Tusko, a miracle may be nothing more than an act of kindness from a stranger at the time you needed it the most.
    Miracles do not have to involve Laser Light shows or Pyrotechnic wizardry in order to be valid.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 15 by Tusko, posted 05-24-2007 4:06 PM Tusko has replied

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    Taz
    Member (Idle past 3292 days)
    Posts: 5069
    From: Zerus
    Joined: 07-18-2006


    Message 18 of 39 (402142)
    05-24-2007 5:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 7 by Tusko
    05-24-2007 1:49 PM


    Tusko writes:
    you are quite right about this. However, It's pretty safe to say that whether we correctly ascribe apparently miraculous events to an omnipotent deity or not, if God wants miracles to be correctly interpreted and taken seriously, then he has the power to 'make it so'. After all, he's done it before.
    See, we are now wandering into the realm of what god wants, and this is always an iffy subject. IFF there is a god and IFF he is omnipotent and omniscient, he could do whatever the heck he pleases. We can't really question why hasn't god done this or why hasn't god done that.
    Here is a real life example. My wife just asked me if I am going to water the garden, and I told her "no". Well, why not? My wife couldn't care less because after all it's my garden and not hers. Hers is on the other side of the yard. So, right now to her I don't have any particular reason why I'm not going to water it today. My reason is that I'm pretty sure we're going to get at least a light shower sometime tonight.
    Now, try to imagine it on a grander scale. God hasn't performed any major miracle, like raining down brimstone and fire onto the city of LA, but who's to say why he hasn't done it?
    If you look at it from the point of view of someone who believes that the biblical miracles actually took place, then you have to find an explanation for why they got some, and none of the subsequent people really got anything impressive at all. You basically have to come to the conclusion that for whatever reason, God hasn't thought it appropriate to reveal himself to later populations in the way that he was doing circa 20 AD.
    I don't have any answer, but I do have a hypothesis. Perhaps the people long ago needed something more than faith to go on. After all, they were persecuted constantly. I guess god thought that they needed some kind of a nudge to keep them going. But look at today. There are more christians than there are rabbits. Perhaps god sees no need to give them a nudge to keep going?
    My initial reaction to this is - isn't that preferential treatment for a bunch of first-century sandal-wearers? My second reaction is - if faith without evidence is really such a virtue, then why was God allowing 'offical', 'authorised' honest-to-Himself miracles to happen in front of anyone?
    This is like asking why I watered the garden yesterday but am not going to today? I have free will. God has free will. I have proposed this before, and I'm going to propose it again. What if god really has the mentality of a child... in the great scheme of things at least? Do we honestly expect too much consistency in the actions of a child?


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    This message is a reply to:
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    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 19 of 39 (402154)
    05-24-2007 7:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 15 by Tusko
    05-24-2007 4:06 PM


    Why?
    If he were to do any today, they'd have to be a lot more impressive.
    Why?
    You seem to be set on the idea that the message was the miracle, "Hey Rocky, wanna see me pull a Rabbit out of a hat?" or "Here. hold my beer..."
    Granted, there are some such examples in the Bible but few if any related to Jesus. Most of the show miracles are OT stuff, Moses showing who could conjure up the bigger boa for example.
    Stop and look at the material you yourself have mentioned in the thread.
    Jesus puts on a lecture series. The staff come to him and say, "Boss, these folk came a long way to hear you, you talked all day, now it is going to be too late for them to get home. Can we feed them?"
    The staff don't say, "Hey Boss, here is the storyboard, Crowd shows up, you take a couple fish and some day old bread and make bouillabaisse for 5000. That will make page one of the entertainment section."
    For the most part, Jesus miracles are after the fact and NOT done to impress.
    I think Jar's example of Thomas the Doubter is very aposite. Tom is a fairly sensible chap who thought that the idea of Jesus' resurrection was a load of old codswallop. But this doubt wasn't treated with the indifference that subsequent generations have had to deal with. Instead he was given pretty intimate, conclusive evidence of the miracle(in the terms of the day, anyway). To me this seems pretty unfair, because no-one get's that kind of service these days. Clearly, however, it doesn't bother modern Christians much because they're still Christian. I was wondering how they squared that particular circle.
    Square what circle?
    I'm a Christian. I am telling you that is the point of the story.
    If, like Thomas, you do not believe, you not just have doubts, you just plain think the whole story is a bunch of old and cold codswallop, that's fine.
    You are not expected to believe without proof at the same level of verification Thomas had.

    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 15 by Tusko, posted 05-24-2007 4:06 PM Tusko has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 25 by Tusko, posted 05-25-2007 6:27 AM jar has replied
     Message 32 by Equinox, posted 05-25-2007 12:26 PM jar has replied

      
    Doddy
    Member (Idle past 5910 days)
    Posts: 563
    From: Brisbane, Australia
    Joined: 01-04-2007


    Message 20 of 39 (402158)
    05-24-2007 7:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
    05-24-2007 5:10 PM


    Re: Everyday Miracles
    Phat writes:
    Just what is a miracle, anyway?
    Good question, but I don't agree with that definition, as it related to this discussion (I think those definitions are the common use of the word miracle, as in "Miraculously, I didn't fail my exam", where miraculously could be replaced by 'amazingly' without any loss in meaning).
    I'd say a miracle is a something that is "contrary to the [known] laws of nature".
    So, things like love, life and kindness are not miracles, because they are reasonably well explained by science. Neither would a tsunami occurring in the Red Sea to kill an Egyptian army, or a volcanic eruption near Sodom.
    But, something as simple as turning water into wine (in the absence of a carbon source) would be a miracle to me.
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    This message is a reply to:
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    RAZD
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    Posts: 20714
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
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    Message 21 of 39 (402161)
    05-24-2007 8:13 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Tusko
    05-24-2007 6:06 AM


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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Tusko, posted 05-24-2007 6:06 AM Tusko has replied

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    Tusko
    Member (Idle past 101 days)
    Posts: 615
    From: London, UK
    Joined: 10-01-2004


    Message 22 of 39 (402212)
    05-25-2007 6:01 AM
    Reply to: Message 16 by ringo
    05-24-2007 4:59 PM


    So just to get this straight, you are saying that there isn't necessarily any tension between someone today believing God doesn't do miracles now because it prevents people making the free choice to believe on the one hand and on the other the fact that Jebus worked public miracles according to the gospels.
    To me that still seems at least a little contradictory. Whatever the reasons for miracles (and you may well be right, winning converts might not be on the list), the often used rationalisation to explain God's much less hands on approach in the modern era is precisely that miracles do affect people in this way, and do force belief from them.
    I'm willing to concede that maybe I've flogged this one a bit hard.
    Edited by Tusko, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 16 by ringo, posted 05-24-2007 4:59 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 24 by ikabod, posted 05-25-2007 6:13 AM Tusko has not replied
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    Tusko
    Member (Idle past 101 days)
    Posts: 615
    From: London, UK
    Joined: 10-01-2004


    Message 23 of 39 (402213)
    05-25-2007 6:10 AM
    Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
    05-24-2007 5:10 PM


    Re: Everyday Miracles
    I agree with Jar when he said that the bible's 'laser show' miracles are, in our terms, prosaic. I agree with you when you say that miracles don't have to be flashy to be impressive; if one interprets an event as a miracle then by definition you have been impressed, regardless of what it actually is.
    The intended focus of this topic - and I'm starting to wonder whether it is really worthy of discussion - is outlined in the post I just wrote to Ringo.
    If I was to address this to you I would ask:
    As a person with faith, what do you think of the rationalisation that God doesn't do stadium gig miracles as described in the bible because it would force people into faith?
    I was under the impression that this was a fairly commonplace idea, but it seems from the responses I've been getting that I might actually have made it up. Whoops!

    This message is a reply to:
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    ikabod
    Member (Idle past 4493 days)
    Posts: 365
    From: UK
    Joined: 03-13-2006


    Message 24 of 39 (402214)
    05-25-2007 6:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 22 by Tusko
    05-25-2007 6:01 AM


    jsut a though here , do not all the miracles seem to occur at the founding of a prophets new "church" ie Moses leading the jews to a new land with a new covenant , and the same with Jesus ..,
    are miracles being used not to create belief , but to direct that belief down a new path / church /covenant , they are the "authentication " of the prophet and the new message .
    compare the miracles of Moses , and Jesus and how they suit the needs of the prophet to achive their tasks .

    This message is a reply to:
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    Tusko
    Member (Idle past 101 days)
    Posts: 615
    From: London, UK
    Joined: 10-01-2004


    Message 25 of 39 (402217)
    05-25-2007 6:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 19 by jar
    05-24-2007 7:24 PM


    Re: Why?
    I think I've figured out where this has gone wrong here.
    I don't think I have any beef with what you say. I was prompted to start this topic because I'm interested in the rationalisation that God doesn't do any really big miracles today because this would force people into faith. Seen from this viewpoint, which assumes that miracles must to some degree influence people to believe (which personally I don't believe), then it seems odd that God ever 'did' miracles.
    I'm interested in whether anyone could explain what rationalisations people who believe God doesn't do miracles 'to allow people the free will to chose' might use to explain his use of the miracles in the bible. After all, if it is undesirable for God to do miracles for this reason, then every time he did one back then he scored a bit of an own goal by depriving the viewers of their ability to choose to believe.
    Note that I myself don't believe that miracles could in force people to believe - unless the true God physically bent the brains of all humanity to believe in Her. Otherwise events are merely signs open to conflicting interpretation.
    ABE: Now it might be that I've made up the idea that some people rationalise the absence of 'loud' miracles today through the means outlined above. However - I'm sure I've heard it used on several occasions. I thought it was something of a stock answer. Whoops if it isn't!
    Edited by Tusko, : No reason given.
    Edited by Tusko, : cleared up the first sentence of the third paragraph.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 19 by jar, posted 05-24-2007 7:24 PM jar has replied

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    Tusko
    Member (Idle past 101 days)
    Posts: 615
    From: London, UK
    Joined: 10-01-2004


    Message 26 of 39 (402218)
    05-25-2007 6:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 21 by RAZD
    05-24-2007 8:13 PM


    What an animal!
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    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 27 of 39 (402222)
    05-25-2007 9:01 AM
    Reply to: Message 22 by Tusko
    05-25-2007 6:01 AM


    Tusko writes:
    ... you are saying that there isn't necessarily any tension between someone today believing God doesn't do miracles now...
    I don't think I've said anywhere that "God doesn't do miracles now". Just the opposite. I'm saying that you're exaggerating the Siegfried and Roy aspect of the Bible miracles. I'm saying that the vast majority of miracles then were as prosaic as the vast majority of miracles now. I'm saying that there is no "change" that needs explaining.
    ... because it prevents people making the free choice to believe....
    God doesn't care if people believe. Why would He do miracles to "make" them believe?
    ... the often used rationalisation to explain God's much less hands on approach in the modern era ...
    It's interesting that nobody has come forward in this thread with the so-called "often used rationalization".
    ... miracles do affect people in this way, and do force belief from them.
    Maybe you need to show us in the Bible where that is true. Where did miracles "force belief"?

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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 22 by Tusko, posted 05-25-2007 6:01 AM Tusko has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 28 by Tusko, posted 05-25-2007 9:54 AM ringo has replied
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    Tusko
    Member (Idle past 101 days)
    Posts: 615
    From: London, UK
    Joined: 10-01-2004


    Message 28 of 39 (402226)
    05-25-2007 9:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 27 by ringo
    05-25-2007 9:01 AM


    I could be wrong, but I don't think that I disagree with you. I think that in retrospect my OP must have been terribly unclear. Or possibly, I wasn't really sure what I wanted to talk about until other people started talking about something else.
    The fact of whether God does miracles now or not isn't the issue, although I see that I formulated the whole OP suggesting that it was. Actually what its about is asking what reasons people might give for God doing miracles at all if they believe the rationalisation that he doesn't do miracles because he doesn't want to take people's free will to choose to believe away.
    I was very confident that I'd heard people advance this suggestion before.
    It's interesting that nobody has come forward in this thread with the so-called "often used rationalization".
    To be honest, I'm a bit surprised too! I'm starting to think that if you've never heard it used before I must either have misunderstood someone at some point or I must have dreamt it. Ah well, sorry- so much for this thread!
    So in summary, sorry if I've wasted your time with a pointless question! By the way, I'm going to the fine city of Norwich for the weekend and so won't be around for a couple of days. Wish me luck as I drink myself around my old university haunts.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 27 by ringo, posted 05-25-2007 9:01 AM ringo has replied

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    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 29 of 39 (402234)
    05-25-2007 10:39 AM
    Reply to: Message 25 by Tusko
    05-25-2007 6:27 AM


    Re: Why?
    Well, I am sorry that none of those folk have come forward myself. Perhaps it is a sign of one of two possibilities.
    They may have realized that it is a silly argument to try to make and so dropped it.
    Or they may still believe such nonsense and be afraid to bring it up outside the protection of their clan gatherings.

    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

    This message is a reply to:
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    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 30 of 39 (402246)
    05-25-2007 11:33 AM
    Reply to: Message 28 by Tusko
    05-25-2007 9:54 AM


    Tusko writes:
    I'm starting to think that if you've never heard it used before I must either have misunderstood someone at some point or I must have dreamt it.
    I've heard the argument before, but only from "low-level" Christians who don't think things through.

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    This message is a reply to:
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