A question that was first presented by Socrates.

riVeRraT writes:

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Also, answer this, do you like your life?

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Oh, look! He's trying to play psychology! If we say no, then he'll point out that that is an obvious hole in our soul that can only be filled by Jeeeeeezus! And if we say yes, he'll accuse of lying. The point is to somehow make us wallow in self-pity and is thus a diversion from the real subject:How can a god that does evil be considered good?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT writes:

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So for me all evil is from the hearts of bad men/women.

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So god is a human? After all, god admits to doing evil. In fact, god directly states that all evil traces its source directly back to him.So if all evil is from the hearts of bad men/women and if all evil can be directly traced back to god, then god must be a bad man/woman.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRrat Yes then I pointed out how what you conjecture here cannot occur without causing problems with other supposed capabilities god is assumed to have.It is not simply a matter of not understanding but of also such proposals standing up to scrutiny of their reasoning. Yes. That god can punish us is basicaly a given in holy books. The difficulty is that if we postulate that god gives us the free will{which is quite possibly not something we actually posses} to choose a course of action, including one that he does not want us to take, the result of our choices would then be a result of god's actions and as such are god's responsibility not ours if, by such actions, we disappoint god. That is where we part company. If you commit to something in that way then 1}it does not matter what you belieeve in you will never be able to depart from it even when it becomes crashingly obvious that it is wrong {witness Jonestown} and 2} you will fit the world to a preconception filtered through your assumptions before you investigate its phenomena for what they actually are expressing since, if you find reality to offer up things distasteful to your beliefs, then you must reinterpret that event or events to fit the preconception that your ego investment in it may stabilize and allow you to continue on in your belief.
To me though,for something to require that I provide the necessary frame of mind, in order for it to have any existence is silly. If god actually exists why would he need me to base existence upon? Sorry old man but there are innumerable ways in which a god could make himself known that do not require such ill gotten subterfuge. Then which god is the right one since such statements as this are common throughout history in many different faiths? Neither churches nor individuals are to blame only the nature of humans when they try to pretend to a stature of innocence and piety that they do not actually possess.The first principle is you must not fool yourself. And you are the easiest person to fool. Au contraire, my dear fellow.I have never found science to fill any emptiness.Emptiness is the result of not knowing yourself well enough to understand the difference between being alone and being lonely.We are all alone inside these skulls of ours and it is there that both wonders of generosity to our fellow man/women take place as well as the abysmal wretchedness that demands suffering of those same fellow men/women. The common ground you must understand is that you ARE FULLY BOTH NATURES and as such are capable of atrocities that you should not allow to see the light of day.What then is the correct path to avoid such things? There is none other than the path you construct to your society and the world at large.Ask yourself this. If it were the choice between my god and his teachings and the well being of the rest of humanity{most especially including those who disagree with you} which is foremost?
In your answer lies all your actual commitment to a peaceful world. The rest is just for show and is the mask you present to the world at large for whatever lie you wish to tell yourself.This message has been edited by sidelined, 10-25-2004 07:24 AM

That is correct.

I can't help it if you have a hard time diserning how life is.God created everything, but he did not make everything.
God creates good, we make evil.I think its pretty clear. It cannot get any simpler than that, but your trying to make it simpler.If I go and rape your daughter, that is evil, and you are trying to blame God for it. God is not responsible for my decsions, of what I do with his creations. He will however punish me for it.
He is however responsible for how it all works, but not responsible for the evil that comes of it, we are. Thats his gift to us.Your like one of those people that want to sue the baseball company if a kid breaks your window with it.

Poopy. You don't think the bible is correct, why would you use it to show I am wrong? Unless you are admitting that parts of it are right. Yes we do, if he if fact actually screws up. God himself did not write the bible. How do we know for sure thats what he thinks? Were they innocent?
Were they not given a chance to follow God's ways?
Were they maybe headed down a path of self destruction, and God saved us?

I see your point.
I think since Christ all of that has changed. Thats why he died for us.I guess you want to be thankful for Christ, and pissed at God?

Let's be nice, and let's also try to be relevant and rational.Adminssimo Hambre

Both.
Even if it is unfortunate. I would not get any joy from killing a terrorist(since I value human life that much), But it is a "necessary evil" and I would think that God is pretty upset when he had to kill off his creations.I can tell you this, as far as terrorists are concerned, because I think I know what your going to say next.With all my heart I know God would straighten that mess out for us, if we collectivly believed in him as a nation, and asked him to solve the problem. I am a witness to this way of his working, and when I give my problems to God, he solves it EVERYTIME for me. The fight between good and evil does not belong to us, but to God, that is why we give it to him.

I wasn't trying to be not nice. I was making a rational point, that needed his emotions involved.
I would never do something like that, or wish it on him. I pray that he understands that, and you too.

I did not know that. Then why was it re-written to include the devil?Monotheistic means one God, but the devil is not a god.

No, I wanted to point out, if you read my reply (*ahem*) that I like my life too, and it is a gift from God.If he didn't like his life, then maybe he might have a right to be pissed at someone. People need Jesus whether their life is good or bad.

I am enjoying this conversation, and I am pondering if evil is in fact from God.But I pointed out in another post, that God did not admit to anything, man wrote down what he thought. I think you are using the bible as a reference. Since you don't think the bible is accurate, then you are being hypocrytical?

Rrhain - I'd honestly like to observe your logic, but will YOU first?You said Job was perfect in another thread - yet Job repented. If it repented the Lord - and Job also repented - do you still say that Job was perfect? As for satan - it is clear that God - as you said gives him power on earth, but that's no big deal theologically - as Christ said "the world hated me first". What? The world hate Christ? Why also did satan offer Christ the kingdoms of this world? Did satan have power to offer Christ this thing? Yet Job's ending was better than at first - did satan know of God's plans for Job? Why did God say to satan how perfect and righteouss Job was? Why would he do that to an "agent" - this isn't the matrix you know. This all ties in with the choice of man, to prefer evil from satan - rather than good from God, but don't believe me - take God's word for it --> THE WORD - that satan was a murderer from the beginning.Now if Christ rejects evil - then now we know that satan had power on earth - but why? Because - you have to invite a vampyr in (hope u get that).

You needn't heed the other sides babble about God being evil - tis rubbish my friend - God only visits the evil of OUR doings, as written in the bible.We know that satan fell from heaven - because Christ said he did - and we know that human's preferred evil rather than good - as every thought of their heart was wicked continually. Also - Christ says that those things that come from the heart make us unclean.I think you'll find that like Christ said, "Only one is good - God".Now even if God creates evil for the fruit of our evil - and from our evil, then he is only doing this through righteouss anger. He is not being evil if he preserves hell for the wicked - as they are the evil that caused hell. And if satan was a murderer from the beginning - then we know that we also could prefer evil - but God is good only - even if he does visit upon us the evil of OUR doings.Read also my previous post and withold judgement on the matter, lest Rrhain convinces you with his own thoughts and endeavourous unbeliever banterisms.