Is sin allowed into heaven?

Where did I say that? What I said was that Bells inequality shows that hidden variables are incompaitble with what we observe. If hidden variable theories of quantum mechanics accurately depicted the real world, we would observe completely different things. What we don't know about quantum mechanics is irrelevent, since we don't know what we don't know. You can't use lack of knowledge as evidence of something. No Heisenbergs Uncertainty Principle shows that absolute determination of the state of a system is impossible. Bells inequality simply shows that hidden variable theories are incompatible (or at least it sets up the conditions that would be true if they were compatible, and experiment shows that those conditions are violated). Anyway, you just admitted that you can't prove your assertion, so there is no way to know that your assertion is true. It's not a simple logical step at all. We have little idea about how the inner workings of the brain work, so we certainly can't say if it's possible to determine the future state of it or not. Also, just because we are subject to physical forces, that does not mean the end result is entirely deterministic for precisely the reasons we've discussed above.As an example, take an electron diffraction experiment. Basically you have a double slit, and you fire an electron at it, then measure where it lands on the board. If you fire a single electron at the slits, in full knowledge of the physical forces being applied to it, where will it end up? Who knows, it's not determinable. You can determine the probabilities of where it will end up on the board, and if you fire enough electrons those probabilities will form a definite pattern, but you can never know where one single electron will end up. Can you be certain no quantum effects like that occur in the brain? Without free will there is no choice. Without choice there is no accountability for our actions, and forgivness becomes stupid. Without the need for forgiveness, christianity becomes irrelevent. The whole reason for our existence on earth becomes irrelevent. Without free will there is no reason not to simply create everyone in heaven, only creating those that would meet the requirements. Do you demand repentance from your computer when it breaks? Thats not surprising with names like NosyIsAnUglyMan and JarLikeBoys! I have a feeling that the thread for discussing free will already exists anyway, so we should probably just find that..

If it's a purely physical phenom, then surely it can be explained.......if not, then surely God made it. Either way, everything was predetermined...... That's because of the collapse of the wave function, not because the system doesn't operate in predetermined fashion. This is an anti-materialist point of view. It's perfectly predictable what the WAVE will do though. This is your opinion. Not Christian doctrine. This could be said, regardless of whether free will exists. Sounds good to me.

Well, even though I find quoting all sorts of scientific facts, theories (and theorems) and statistics fascinating, I personally feel that they bog down what otherwise should be a matter for philosophy (but don't get me wrong- Feel free to use as much science as you want- just don't expect me to sit down and read it all through). Since I haven't posted here before, you should probably know that I'm a science student (a little bit of everything, mostly bio and some physics). But I'm first and foremost a strong Christian and a philosopher.I will speak mostly from personal experience on this one. Over the past few months, I have been struggling with some specific issues in my life. I started talking to a friend about it, and I believe that God has used these issues in my life to draw me closer to my friend, and more importantly, to Himself. That is the meaning of life-- that is why we are born on this earth. If we were born straight into heaven, we would not be prepared for it-- our inherently rebellious spirits would not be compatible with God's perfect place for us. God uses the time on earth to teach us.I know that a few months ago I would not have been ready to go to heaven. If I died, would God have let me into heaven? Yes, but I don't believe God would have let me die at that point. No, God cannot allow sin to enter heaven, but I know that I am justified by faith in my Lord and Savior, Jesus, and that I am forgiven. I honestly can't speak for more than myself and a few of my closest friends and mentors, but I know that once I'm in heaven, God will not allow me to be tempted by any demonic influences (yes, I'm a believer in demons and angels and spiritual warfare and all that, but that's a matter for a different discussion-- one that I'd love to get into) and I will have no desire to sin, out of my own choosing.In other words, I will have free will in heaven, and I will not sin out of my own free will which will be perfectly aligned to God's will. I can see how you might see that as losing my own free will, but it's not. Think of the one person you most love and care for on this earth, and how you would do anything to make them happy-- how perfectly at times, in some cases, your will aligns so perfectly with theirs, even though you still have your own free will. Now imagine loving and caring for that person so much that this was always the case. That is just a glimpse of the way that my will is going to be one with God's will in heaven.I'm sorry if I repeated something too many times or if I abandoned science too much for philosophy, but it's 12:30am, My brain is done thinking about science for the day (too much thinking for one day can do that to me...), and im in an unusually philosophical mood right now... and pretty tired...

Welcome to EvC Xenocrates.Good thoughtful job on your first post. Enjoy your stay.If you have any quesions ask in Suggestions and Questions.

Hi Xenocrates, welcome to the forum. I take it your post was more in reply to me than anything NosyIsAnUglyMan said. Anyway, i'm pretty certain that NosyIsAnUglyMan has been well and truly banned. He has issues with the admins for something or other, and he probably won't be back any time soon.You're right, the science doesn't really belong in this thread. I shouldn't really have indulged NosyIsAnUglyMan in it, but as there were no other takers I felt there was no harm in discussing with him. We should keep the thread on philosophical issues from now on. (I have a scientific background too btw. No biology, all physics). And then... From what you wrote there I take it that you think our rebellious nature comes from being tempted by demons etc. (You're right that they're existence or lack thereof is not part of this topic. I don't believe they exist, but for the purpose of this debate i'll suspend disbelief. I'm sure there will be threads out there that discuss it, or if not maybe you could propose one in the Propose New Topics forum). And you believe that if we are not tempted by demons then we will not choose to sin. But you also said somewhere that sin is physically (if thats the right word) not possible in heaven as it's not allowed. So what would happen if of your own choosing you did choose to sin in heaven. If you have free will then that is a possibility. If it's not a possiblity then it would be possible to create a situation on earth where free will existed but we would never be able to choose to sin, and sin would be uneseccary.

No, you misunderstood me. I believe that demonic influence plays a large part in temptation, albeit the largest part, but there is also the element of mankind's inherent sinful nature, i.e. the fact that man is born sinful and has sunful desires completely originating within himself without outside (demonic or other) influences.The reason that in heaven I don't believe that it will be an issue is, as I said in my previous post,

quote:

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...I will have free will in heaven, and I will not sin out of my own free will which will be perfectly aligned to God's will.

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Also see the rest of that paragraph (I didn't want to copy the entire paragraph). I'm a bit unsure of what you are saying. I take it you are asking why God dind't just create the perfect world in which no one would want to sin in the first place. In a way he did, in the Garden of Eden, but thaty's getting a bit off topic. As i said in my earlier post, God creates us on this world so that we can learn-- this world is a preperation for heaven. God wants two things of Christians on earth. Firstly, to learn and to grow in Him, and secondly, to win others over.Yes, I guess God could have just created us perfect beings and not even allowed demons to exist in the first place, but I know there's a deeper meaning to it, and I don't claim to understand nearly everything God does, only the few things He reveals to me.

Ok, I get you now. You think that demons just exacerbate the problem, but removing their influence doesn't stop humans sinning as they will still desire to due to their sinful nature?But when you go into heaven this sinful nature will somehow be removed and you'll have no desire to sin and you will choose not to sin?Well I can see two alternatives as to what could happen here. Either your sinful nature has been completely removed (or maybe simply repressed by god so completely that the sinful part of you is no longer evident, which amounts to the same thing) so you are no longer "you", you are different somehow to what you are here on earth. If this is the case, I see no reason for you to ever have had that part of you in the first place. You could have been created with free will and no desire to sin in the first place. (This also removes the free will defense for evil that some people use, but that is a different topic).The second option is that the sinful nature part of you is not removed, and there is every possibility that you may choose to sin while in heaven. I know you said that you will always choose not to, but if you have a sinful nature then there is nothing stopping you choosing to sin. If that is the case this brings up the question of what will happen if someone sins in heaven? It also makes heaven no different to earth, meaning that anything that could be learned on earth could also be learned in heaven.I'm simply running the concept through my head and seeing where it leaves me. I simply find the christian concept of heaven to not fit with the existence of the universe, and specifically the existence of people on earth. Obviously this is all purely hypotheitical so I don't expect any hard and fast answers.

And I'm afraid you won't get any hard and fast answers. You do have to realize that I still spend a lot of time thinking about things like this, and on most things, I will never reach an answer. Well, repressed is the wrong word (it has a bit of a negative connotation), but that's just semantics... In a way, that's true-- and it's the part of me I don't want that I won't have anymore. It's along the same lines as the ressurection of the body, i.e., that in heaven, I will have a physical body after the resurrection of the saints, a.k.a. the second coming (some Christians will disagree with me on this, but its scriptural-- if you really want, I'll get some references on this) that will be perfect (no blemishes, no scars, no defects, no sickness, etc.). In other words, I will be ressurected spiritually in the same way. This is the part that I, in all honestly, have has to think long and hard about to justify it in my mind, and the one answer I came up with (besides that I'll trust God knows what he's doing) is that God uses even our sinful nature to teach us (I'll tell you that much about the issues I was referring to earlier). I don't see where you're going with this one-- yes, I believe that If I never learned to juggle here on earth, I will probably get a chance to learn it in heaven, if I really want to... but the main purpose of heaven is for the saints (using the term in its more general sense) to worship and glorify God for all eternity-- admittedly, this may sound a bit boring at first, but you really would have to experience true worship to understand it (something I have had the privelage of doing several times). Well, the only reasonable thing to do is to keep contemplating and I hope you someday understand-- at least you're keeping an open mind and are not violently opposed to even the mention of a god (much less of God) like some atheists I know (and something that bugs me just as much, if not more, is Christians who are willing to say nothing to atheists besides shouting in their faces that they're wrong and that they're gonna burn, etc.)This message has been edited by Xenocrates, 11-28-2004 09:09 AM

Don't worry, i'm just intending a sharing of thoughts This is where I will differ with you. I'm of the opinion that if a part of me was removed then I wouldn't be the same person, I would cease to be "me". I happen to like being "me", and all of what I am goes towards that. Sorry, I should have explained it better. This was from the second option, where your sinful nature wasn't removed and you could still choose to sin in heaven. If this were the case, I fail to see how heaven would be different to earth, so there was no actual need for the step on earth. Everything could have been taught in heaven. I get the feeling that you aren't of the opinion that you can choose to sin in heaven though, so this part may not be relevant. And I will. One thing to note though is that none of this has any particular connection to me being an atheist. That comes purely from my lacking any experience of evidence that a god exists, rather than anything that I consider inconsistent about the concepts

So, are you saying that you believe you're perfect? If not, why aren't you? And what makes you imperfect? What if you had an uncontrollable urge to eat sweets and as a result of that, became obese and diabetic-- in that case would you be sad to be rid of that because it is "part of who you are"? And if you were able to give up that habit or that urge, would that make you any less yourself?Yes, I know, my analogy is a bit farfetched/strange, but think about it anyways. If you knew what I have gone through the past couple months, you would know exactly what I'm talking about.This message has been edited by Xenocrates, 11-28-2004 03:54 PM

I don't see people in terms of perfect or imperfect, or anything else in nature come to think of it. I could tell you if a circle was perfect or imperfect, or if a number was a perfect square or not, but these things have strict definitions. We define what the "perfect" state of them is.With humans I don't think there is a perfect state, an ideal. People try to make us think there is. If you look at advertising you see this constantly. The models you see wearing the clothes and wearing the makeup are meant to be perfect specimens with perfect bodies, and more than that perfect lives and perfect personalities. The advertisers try to make us define ourselves based on certain things, and then make us use that definition to realise we're not perfect. There's a great scene in fight club at the start. The guy is upset when his apartment burns down because he thinks that he was only a few items away from having the perfect life but it all burnt down in the fire. I don't think defining a perfect state for myself is a good thing, I prefer to accept myself as me and work with what I have As for the example of having an eating disorder, that would certainly be a problem physically. I don't think that deleting a part of my self would be the best way to solve it though. If you go along that route, where would you stop? You could go on deleting parts of what is you forever until there's nothing left based on the unreachable state of perfection you have in mind.I think the best way to deal with it is accept yourself for who you are, and work on any problems you have without trying to delete them as if they never existed. Mistakes are more valuable than sucesses in many ways, as long as you don't forget about them I would certainly never want a part of me removed based on some arbitrary image of perfection

Well, I disagree with much of what you said in your last post, but at this point that is based on difference in worldviews, and I can never convince you of my position with your current worldview (that's something I would love to discuss, and even though that relates to this thread, as it does to most, if not all, topics of philosophical nature, this is still not an appropriate place to discuss it).In short, though (correct me if I'm wrong), you believe that there is no absolute standard of "perfection" in any sense whatsoever. I deduce from this that you most likely also see no absolutes in other circumstances (right and wrong and other such issues). I, on the other hand, even though in agreement with you on the fact that there are no absolutes of perfection in most areas (mental, physical, etc.), believe that there is an absolute of moral perfection. I also believe in an absolute and consistent right and wrong (not to be confused with always knowing 100% what the moral or right thing is to do in a situation).In my opinion, we have reached the logical conclusion of this train of thought (as much as is appropriate to discuss in this specific thread). I would, however, be more than happy to continue discussing it if you have any more questions or concerns, or even to take it further in a more appropriate thread, or perhaps via a different form of communication (IM, PM, email, etc.).

Not exactly, for example I do think that the perfect circle is an absolute definition. I just don't think that "human" has a strict definition in the way a circle does. For example, someone with a deformity is no less perfectly human than someone with no deformity. I think that with humans, "perfect" is completely contextual. One person's "perfect" human is not another persons "perfect" human.And you're right, I don't believe in an objective reality that exists in the same way say as gravity. I think it is derived from human needs. We need society because we're pretty weak and useless on our own. There are certain things which help society to exist, and there are certain things which hinder it.Oh, and i'm more than willing to continue this by PM or email, whichever you want

Sin is a product of the law and since there are no temples in the New Jeruasalem there can be no sin in heaven.That's easy is it not?

How then was satan kicked out of heaven?