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Author Topic:   Unintelligent design (recurrent laryngeal nerve)
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 196 of 480 (563105)
06-03-2010 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by Big_Al35
06-03-2010 9:52 AM


Citation troll is concerned
Actually, my sources are wide and varied. This refers to just one specific article which highlights only one of my points. There are probably far too many sources for me to possibly provide links to all any of them.
Fixed that for you.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Big_Al35, posted 06-03-2010 9:52 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 197 of 480 (563106)
06-03-2010 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by Big_Al35
06-03-2010 9:52 AM


Dodging and weaving...
Weaving and dodging...
You really don't want to provide any source, do you?
Ah well, everytime you refuse to do so, it becomes more and more clear you just copied something from a creationist webiste and didn't check it, or that you made something up. So all I have to say is: "Keep it up! Show the world that creationism hasn't got anything to stand on!"
Oh, and Catholic Scientist has found a source that completely contradicts you!
Now what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Big_Al35, posted 06-03-2010 9:52 AM Big_Al35 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Big_Al35, posted 06-04-2010 5:55 AM Huntard has replied

Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 198 of 480 (563109)
06-03-2010 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by LinearAq
06-03-2010 9:35 AM


Re: vocal chords
The paper is probably either ...
NONRECURRENT LARYNGEAL NERVES AND THEIR CLINICAL SIGNIFICANCE
Friedman M, Toriumi DM, Grybauskas V, Katz A.
Laryngoscope. 1986 Jan;96(1):87-90.
... or the strangely similar ...
NONRECURRENT LARYNGEAL NERVES AND THEIR CLINICAL SIGNIFICANCE
Friedman M, Ibrahim H.
Operative Techniques in Otolaryngology-Head and Neck Surgery Volume 13, Issue 3, September 2002, Pages 207-210
The 2002 paper covers 4 cases while the 1986 paper covers 3.
*ABE* If anyone should worry about charges of plagiarism it is Friedman for his self-plagiarism. Apart from changing the word three to four twice the abstracts for the two papers are identical.*/ABE*
TTFN,
WK
Edited by Wounded King, : Added links
Edited by Wounded King, : Removed unnneccesary line breaks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by LinearAq, posted 06-03-2010 9:35 AM LinearAq has not replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 199 of 480 (563157)
06-03-2010 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Big_Al35
06-03-2010 9:52 AM


Re: vocal chords
Actually, my sources are wide and varied. This refers to just one specific article which highlights only one of my points. There are probably far too many sources for me to possibly provide links to all of them.
You do realise that quite a few of us here at EvC are real scientists? In science we have a technical term for those who make claims but refuse to provide evidence or references to back up those claims. We call them "idiots". Welcome to science...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Big_Al35, posted 06-03-2010 9:52 AM Big_Al35 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Big_Al35, posted 06-04-2010 6:21 AM cavediver has replied

Big_Al35
Member (Idle past 800 days)
Posts: 389
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 200 of 480 (563251)
06-04-2010 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Huntard
06-03-2010 10:02 AM


Re: Dodging and weaving...
Huntard writes:
Oh, and Catholic Scientist has found a source that completely contradicts you!
Now what?
Ok...so we have two sources which completely contradict each other. I guess we have to agree to disagree in that case. Which was our stance right from the word go right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Huntard, posted 06-03-2010 10:02 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Huntard, posted 06-04-2010 7:04 AM Big_Al35 has not replied
 Message 211 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-04-2010 9:29 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

Big_Al35
Member (Idle past 800 days)
Posts: 389
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 201 of 480 (563255)
06-04-2010 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by cavediver
06-03-2010 3:37 PM


Re: vocal chords
cavediver writes:
You do realise that quite a few of us here at EvC are real scientists? In science we have a technical term for those who make claims but refuse to provide evidence or references to back up those claims. We call them "idiots". Welcome to science...
Did you know that the vocal cords are always open when a person is not speaking? This makes breathing easier. Did you know that when a person speaks or sings the vocal cords vibrate. In order for something to vibrate there requires a degree of inbuilt tension. RLNs can provide that tension. A few minutes on google could have given you all this information.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by cavediver, posted 06-03-2010 3:37 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Larni, posted 06-04-2010 6:56 AM Big_Al35 has replied
 Message 204 by cavediver, posted 06-04-2010 7:30 AM Big_Al35 has not replied
 Message 205 by Wounded King, posted 06-04-2010 8:23 AM Big_Al35 has not replied
 Message 206 by LinearAq, posted 06-04-2010 8:24 AM Big_Al35 has replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 202 of 480 (563257)
06-04-2010 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Big_Al35
06-04-2010 6:21 AM


Re: vocal chords
Hi Big_Al35, if you provide a citation for your source a lot of the criticisms you are receiving on this site will stop and we can get to debating the evidence.
That is what this site is for; debating evidence. This is the science part of this website so every thing (to repeat EVERYTHING) really needs to be backed up with some (hopefully peer reviewed published research) evidence.
This stops people coming here a asserting that something is true and then challenging everybody else here to refute it.
As have been pointed out, some of us here are working scientists who are doing research in their given fields. It is hard to take anyone seriously when there is no evidence that can be independently verifed. At this stage only one citation would be required.
Working scientist especially, have training when it comes to reading journal articles to recognise 'good' research from 'bad' research: that's part of the reason you keep being asked for citations and the like; so the research can be critically evaluated (that phrase still puts the fear of god into me, lol).
If we can get passed this minor hurdle we can debate a pretty interesting topic, I think.
Take it easy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Big_Al35, posted 06-04-2010 6:21 AM Big_Al35 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Big_Al35, posted 06-04-2010 8:48 AM Larni has replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 203 of 480 (563258)
06-04-2010 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Big_Al35
06-04-2010 5:55 AM


Re: Dodging and weaving...
You really have absolutely no clue how this works, do you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Big_Al35, posted 06-04-2010 5:55 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 204 of 480 (563262)
06-04-2010 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Big_Al35
06-04-2010 6:21 AM


Re: vocal chords
Did you know that the vocal cords are always open when a person is not speaking? This makes breathing easier. Did you know that when a person speaks or sings the vocal cords vibrate. In order for something to vibrate there requires a degree of inbuilt tension. RLNs can provide that tension.
Fascinating. So I assume you are saying that non-RLN cannot provide that tension? Evidence and/or references please...
And may I just remind you: in science we have a technical term for those who make claims but refuse to provide evidence or references to back up those claims. We call them "idiots".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Big_Al35, posted 06-04-2010 6:21 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 205 of 480 (563269)
06-04-2010 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Big_Al35
06-04-2010 6:21 AM


Re: vocal chords
In order for something to vibrate there requires a degree of inbuilt tension. RLNs can provide that tension. A few minutes on google could have given you all this information.
You seem to be confusing the function of the muscles that the RLNs innervate with the function of the RLNs themselves. The RLNS do arguably provide that tension, but not directly due to their structure, i.e. their length and looping pathway, but rather through their biological function of conducting impulses to the laryngeal muscles which provide the necessary tension.
You still have to produce any specific reference that actually supports a single one of your claims about the recurrent laryngeal nerves. Certainly the paper we discussed previously, on the effects of thyroid growths, doesn't support any of the initial claims you were asked about in terms of functional differences between a recurrent and non-recurrent path for the laryngeal nerves.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Big_Al35, posted 06-04-2010 6:21 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 206 of 480 (563271)
06-04-2010 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Big_Al35
06-04-2010 6:21 AM


Re: vocal chords
Bigal35 writes:
Did you know that when a person speaks or sings the vocal cords vibrate. In order for something to vibrate there requires a degree of inbuilt tension. RLNs can provide that tension. A few minutes on google could have given you all this information.
I don't understand.
My "few minutes on Google" resulted in a number of sites (too many for me to provide them all here) all of which contend that the tension is controlled by the muscles attached to the cords. Those muscles, and thus the cord tension, are controlled by the signals sent on the nerves (RLN).
According to the articles I read, to say that the RLN provides the cord tension (vice the muscles) is like saying that an electric motor's speed is controlled by the electric cord between the control board and the motor (vice the signal on that cord).
I can provide links to websites that provide this anatomy information. You show me yours and I'll show you mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Big_Al35, posted 06-04-2010 6:21 AM Big_Al35 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Big_Al35, posted 06-04-2010 9:20 AM LinearAq has not replied

Big_Al35
Member (Idle past 800 days)
Posts: 389
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 207 of 480 (563276)
06-04-2010 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Larni
06-04-2010 6:56 AM


Re: vocal chords
Larni writes:
Working scientist especially, have training when it comes to reading journal articles to recognise 'good' research from 'bad' research: that's part of the reason you keep being asked for citations and the like; so the research can be critically evaluated (that phrase still puts the fear of god into me, lol).
This is precisely the reason that I will not be providing my sources. I can never be sure that your sources will not always be classed as 'good' research and my sources always be classed as 'bad' research. If you have issues with my comments raise them by all means....but lets not get third parties involved.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Larni, posted 06-04-2010 6:56 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Larni, posted 06-04-2010 10:17 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

Big_Al35
Member (Idle past 800 days)
Posts: 389
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 208 of 480 (563290)
06-04-2010 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by LinearAq
06-04-2010 8:24 AM


Re: vocal chords
LinearAq writes:
I don't understand.
My "few minutes on Google" resulted in a number of sites (too many for me to provide them all here) all of which contend that the tension is controlled by the muscles attached to the cords. Those muscles, and thus the cord tension, are controlled by the signals sent on the nerves (RLN).
An article I just read on the Management of Paradoxical Vocal-Cord Dysfunction (PVCD) States the following;
"As breathing becomes controlled, the athlete is encouraged to stand upright while maintaining diaphragmatic breathing. Diaphragmatic breathing is preferred to clavicular breathing due to the increased laryngeal tension promoted through clavicular breathing. "
Tension within the laryngeal nerve is a key factor in how the vocal cords function.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by LinearAq, posted 06-04-2010 8:24 AM LinearAq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Huntard, posted 06-04-2010 9:25 AM Big_Al35 has replied
 Message 210 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-04-2010 9:28 AM Big_Al35 has not replied
 Message 212 by Wounded King, posted 06-04-2010 9:37 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 209 of 480 (563292)
06-04-2010 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Big_Al35
06-04-2010 9:20 AM


Re: vocal chords
Big_Al35 writes:
Diaphragmatic breathing is preferred to clavicular breathing due to the increased laryngeal tension promoted through clavicular breathing. "
Tension within the laryngeal nerve is a key factor in how the vocal cords function.
Laryngeal tension is not tension in the laryngeal nerve, you dolt.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Big_Al35, posted 06-04-2010 9:20 AM Big_Al35 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Big_Al35, posted 06-04-2010 9:41 AM Huntard has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 210 of 480 (563294)
06-04-2010 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Big_Al35
06-04-2010 9:20 AM


Re: vocal chords
An article I just read on the Management of Paradoxical Vocal-Cord Dysfunction (PVCD) States the following;
"As breathing becomes controlled, the athlete is encouraged to stand upright while maintaining diaphragmatic breathing. Diaphragmatic breathing is preferred to clavicular breathing due to the increased laryngeal tension promoted through clavicular breathing. "
Tension within the laryngeal nerve is a key factor in how the vocal cords function.
That's saying that the tension is increasing in the larynx, not the recurrent laryngeal nerve!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Big_Al35, posted 06-04-2010 9:20 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

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