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Author Topic:   Neither a theist nor an atheist
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 61 of 118 (732736)
07-10-2014 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by NoNukes
07-10-2014 1:21 PM


NoNukes writes:
ringo writes:
I just don't believe they know what they think they know.
That would make you either agnostic or atheist rather than them.
I'm agnostic about other people's agnosticism and/or atheism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by NoNukes, posted 07-10-2014 1:21 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 62 of 118 (732748)
07-10-2014 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by granpa
07-10-2014 1:11 PM


Re: I'm confused...
Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no? Or are you asking agnostic?
How can you be just a little bit atheistic? Either you believe in a deity or set of deities, or you don't. It is just like being pregnant. You are either pregnant, or you aren't. There isn't some middle path where you are a little bit pregnant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by granpa, posted 07-10-2014 1:11 PM granpa has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by granpa, posted 07-10-2014 3:09 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 64 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-10-2014 3:29 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 65 by PurpleYouko, posted 07-11-2014 9:54 AM Taq has replied

  
granpa
Member (Idle past 2363 days)
Posts: 128
Joined: 10-26-2010


Message 63 of 118 (732750)
07-10-2014 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Taq
07-10-2014 2:52 PM


Re: I'm confused...
I didn't say there was. I said the question itself makes no sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Taq, posted 07-10-2014 2:52 PM Taq has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 118 (732753)
07-10-2014 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Taq
07-10-2014 2:52 PM


Re: I'm confused...
How can you be just a little bit atheistic?
Igtheism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Taq, posted 07-10-2014 2:52 PM Taq has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 65 of 118 (732818)
07-11-2014 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Taq
07-10-2014 2:52 PM


Re: I'm confused...
How can you be just a little bit atheistic? Either you believe in a deity or set of deities, or you don't. It is just like being pregnant. You are either pregnant, or you aren't. There isn't some middle path where you are a little bit pregnant.
Surely there are degrees of certainty in a person's beliefs.
I would say that Faith is 100% certain of her positions but I don't think many of us share that level of conviction.
I would place myself at about 95% along a scale towards Atheism since I have yet to see any evidence saying otherwise yet I am unable to hold the absolute conviction that God does not exist.
Does that make me an Atheist?.
In the chart it would place me as a (mostly) gnostic atheist but not all the way into the corner.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Taq, posted 07-10-2014 2:52 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Taq, posted 07-11-2014 2:36 PM PurpleYouko has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 66 of 118 (732819)
07-11-2014 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by granpa
07-09-2014 12:20 AM


1 cup of Hydrogen
granpa writes:
the possibility that other universes might have different laws from our own is a reasonable possibility. But they must follow some sort of laws of cause and effect and that means it isn't magic
Oh? Why's that? Are you privy to the rules of universe-making?
Did you just say that other universes can have different laws from ours, but they must follow the same laws?
Other universes (if they exist) do not depend on your ability to fathom their existence.
Just like God and other Spaghetti Monsters.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 67 of 118 (732833)
07-11-2014 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by PurpleYouko
07-11-2014 9:54 AM


Re: I'm confused...
Surely there are degrees of certainty in a person's beliefs.
You can still have a firm belief in the face of 100% uncertainty. I think they call it faith.
I would place myself at about 95% along a scale towards Atheism since I have yet to see any evidence saying otherwise yet I am unable to hold the absolute conviction that God does not exist.
Atheism does not require a belief in the absence of God. All atheism requires is a lack of a positive belief in God which would make you 100% atheist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by PurpleYouko, posted 07-11-2014 9:54 AM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by PurpleYouko, posted 07-11-2014 4:44 PM Taq has replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 68 of 118 (732844)
07-11-2014 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Taq
07-11-2014 2:36 PM


Re: I'm confused...
Surely there are degrees of certainty in a person's beliefs.
You can still have a firm belief in the face of 100% uncertainty. I think they call it faith.
That makes no sense to me. If you have a firm (let's say absolute) belief in something then you are, by definition, 100% certain that you are correct. Take Faith's position about the bible as an example. right or wrong, there is absolutely no doubt in her certainty that the bible is 100% correct
Atheism does not require a belief in the absence of God. All atheism requires is a lack of a positive belief in God which would make you 100% atheist.
All depends on definitions doesn't it?
personally I agree with you that atheism is just a lack of belief. nothing more and nothing less but my experience has been that most people see atheists as having a positive belief in the absence of God. I've often argued that point in the past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Taq, posted 07-11-2014 2:36 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 70 by Taq, posted 07-11-2014 6:16 PM PurpleYouko has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 69 of 118 (732860)
07-11-2014 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by PurpleYouko
07-11-2014 4:44 PM


Re: I'm confused...
If you have a firm (let's say absolute) belief in something then you are, by definition, 100% certain that you are correct. Take Faith's position about the bible as an example. right or wrong, there is absolutely no doubt in her certainty that the bible is 100% correct.
Since I was mentioned I'll answer, yes, that's of course very true. There is no such thing as faith in anything you don't believe is true.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Taq, posted 07-11-2014 6:17 PM Faith has replied
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 07-12-2014 12:44 PM Faith has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 70 of 118 (732861)
07-11-2014 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by PurpleYouko
07-11-2014 4:44 PM


Re: I'm confused...
If you have a firm (let's say absolute) belief in something then you are, by definition, 100% certain that you are correct.
Belief and knowledge are two different things. Belief is what you have in the absence of knowledge, in the absence of certainty.
personally I agree with you that atheism is just a lack of belief. nothing more and nothing less but my experience has been that most people see atheists as having a positive belief in the absence of God.
A lack of a belief is enough to get above the bar. Anything additional is just more clearance over that bar.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 71 of 118 (732862)
07-11-2014 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Faith
07-11-2014 6:13 PM


Re: I'm confused...
Since I was mentioned I'll answer, yes, that's of course very true. There is no such thing as faith in anything you don't believe is true.
There is no faith if you have evidence that it is true. Faith is a belief held in the absence of evidence. Without evidence you do not have certainty. However, you can still have the convictions of your faith based beliefs. The problem seems to be that people are confusing conviction with certainty.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 07-11-2014 6:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 07-14-2014 3:00 AM Taq has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 72 of 118 (732916)
07-12-2014 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Faith
07-11-2014 6:13 PM


Faith writes:
There is no such thing as faith in anything you don't believe is true.
I'd say, rather, that the strength of your faith correlates to the strength of your belief. If you really, really, really do believe in spooks then you can have a lot of faith in spooks - but if you only kind sorta believe in spooks, you won't put much faith in them.
For you, faith may be an on/off switch that goes straight from atheism to fanatical Christianity but for others it's more of a spectrum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 07-11-2014 6:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 07-14-2014 2:04 AM ringo has replied
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 07-14-2014 3:03 AM ringo has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 185 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 73 of 118 (733055)
07-13-2014 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by granpa
07-10-2014 1:11 PM


Re: I'm confused...
No, I have not stopped beating my wife: I did not start.
You're an idiot.
Edited by Larni, : Added the last sentence.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18300
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 74 of 118 (733092)
07-14-2014 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by ringo
07-12-2014 12:44 PM


The Just shall live by faith....not evidence.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 07-12-2014 12:44 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Coyote, posted 07-14-2014 2:17 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 80 by ramoss, posted 07-14-2014 9:37 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 86 by ringo, posted 07-14-2014 12:07 PM Phat has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 75 of 118 (733093)
07-14-2014 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Phat
07-14-2014 2:04 AM


Nonsense
The Just shall live by faith....not evidence.
That is just nonsense made up by ancient shamans to keep the sheep in the flock, and well-sheared.
If anyone ever tells you, "Trust me, don't bother with any evidence," place one hand on your wallet and exit the area as quickly as possible.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
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