Tax-The-Church

No, no, that won't be necessary. Any day now, the Vatican will sell off it's treasures to feed the starving and house the homeless.I read it in a Book.

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Sure. Not the same thing.An individual pays taxes on his income. Why not a group?An individual pays taxes on his property. Why not a group?An individual claims an exemption for charitable donations. Why not a group?

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You're from Melbourne, Australia - why are you telling us how to run our country?Churches are not a special case; which is why they should continue to enojy tax exempt status. If I wanted to create a club for my friends to get together I could easily acquire tax exempt status for it. The church is no different.

How?No seriously is that true? Sounds like a potential means of dodging all sorts of tax.
Form a tax exempt club and then do all sorts of tax free transactions through it.

dude. I just happen to live and work in Oz. I am and will remain to be a British Citizen for many , many years yet.

If a church is ”church’ enough to file for, and gain, tax exempt status then a ”church’ it is. Your claims of it being a ”Fake Church’ are neither here or there other than to highlight the unwarranted nature of tax-exempt status for all churches and your church’s desire to claim the prize of ”single valid church’ all to it’s self (increasing it’s profit by no end) By ”church’ I do include ALL religious organizations granted such status, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Scientology . For multi-national churches then any and all (minus the threshold value) of all funds raised within a certain nation should be liable for tax at the appropriate rate within that nation. Ie if the roman catholic church gains 50 million in the UK then that 50 mill (minus allowance) would be taxable in the UK. Those who give to a church will have already been taxed, but once they give to the church it’s no longer their money. If you tax the church then you are NOT taxing the individual. The church is NOT a charity and thus should not be treated as one despite its history, it’s despite it protestation to the contrary . If you cant see the individual religions as being in the business of selling identity, moral certitude, and life ever-lasting at the cost of good works (charitable donations to name but one route)and unthinking obedience to that religions dogma, then you are either unfamiliar with religions or within the grasp of one. Either way they ARE selling product, and people it seems are all too eager to buy into it. They are a business, and turnover leads to staggering profit, all of which comes in tax free. This needs to stop. They need to pay their FAIR share. Edited by ohnhai, : No reason given.

I looked at it more carefully. It seems I'm wrong. Sports clubs can get tax exempt status and, until recently, most small clubs simply avoided paying tax because of the corporation tax threshold. In the US, recreational clubs can claim tax exempt status but, it seems, not in the UK.I'm no accountant, so I'm open to correction.

This would all be so much more convincing if the CoE wasn't in such finnancial dire straights. The Church is not a company; there are no shareholders. No-one is getting rich off them.

No church can sell salvation or guarantee salvation. I would, however, not have a problem if any merchandise purchased at the church have a sales tax attached. Who are you speaking about? It sounds as if you are speaking in a way that connects every church by law through another. That's not how it works. My church is run and owned by the people that poured their own money into it in service to the Lord. They are far from millionaires. They make enough money to support the functions of the church to keep it going. A church isn't a company. Period. If you have some sort of objection to these megachurches or the Roman Catholic Church that runs its parishes as a business, take it up with them. My church, and I would dare say, most churches, run completely off of charity to keep it operational, not to inflate the pockets of the church leaders. Its not a company. A company sells things. A church is a gathering place for believers. I think even secular humanist churches are also tax exempt. My church funds various ministries, such as, but not limited to, overseas witnessing, food banks, homeless shelter, youth counseling, marriage counseling, etc, etc. Yes, its all about competition. How silly of me. Also, you are making blanket statements being far too critical and all-inclusive to every church. If a specific church misappropriates its funds, that's on them. But you can't implicate every single church in the world. There are millions of them.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

Of course it is.Any group of people gathered together for a specific purpose is a corporation, in any but the narrowest sense of the word.All such corporations should be treated equally when it comes to taxation, whether their purpose is profit-oriented or not. All such corporations should have the same exemptions for legitimate charitable contributions, such as feeding the hungry, etc.If your church gets a tax exemption for "witnessing", then General Motors should get one for its advertising too.

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A church isn't a company.

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So my basketball pick up games at the park is a corporation? We're all there for a specific reason-- to play basketball. I should be taxed for playing basketball then. Should? Why should they be taxed? General Motors is trying to sell you something. What is a witness talking about Jesus selling you? And by the same premise, if GM places an add in a magazine, they are paying that magazine for the spot in the add. If a church advertised in that same magazine, they'd have to pay the same fee. However, if someone working for GM simply tells a friend of theirs their personal opinion about how well-built GM's products are, what can you tax them for? Isn't that what witnesses do? They just talk about it. What did the GM employee sell you? Nothing, and neither does the witness for Christ.But here's the bottom line: Churches or any other charitable function isn't selling, they are giving. That would be like a family all chipping in to buy another member of the family a meal and you taxing the family for it.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

Yes. We're talking about groups here. The group you play basketball with should pay taxes on the income it derives from playing basketball. The Los Angeles Lakers do. Why not you? Why shouldn't they? I've asked you before, why doesn't "render unto Caesar" apply to groups? Salvation?From my viewpoint, your advertising is no different from GM's. If that person passes the collection plate, what difference does it make if he's collecting for GM or for God? The message is irrelevant. The money should be taxed. We're not talking about the giving. We're talking about the receiving. If they take money in, that money should be taxed just like it is for any other organization.

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So my basketball pick up games at the park is a corporation?

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LOL! That's because the Lakers really are a corporation who play professional basketball and who make people (here's the operative word) "buy" tickets to watch them. What are you going to tax me and the other guys on when its tax dollars that pay for the right of the park in the first place?Secondly, since when do "groups" need to pay taxes? Single people are exempt from taxes? That's news to me. When I was single I payed taxes just like everybody else.

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Why should they be taxed?

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I already told you. They aren't selling anything. ALL legal United States citizens, church-going or not, pay their taxes-- multiple taxes at that. They pay Federal, State, Social Security, FICA, and are taxed a percentage for every single thing they buy, which is more commonly known as "sales tax." If they don't, they are in for some heartache when the IRS comes knocking and asking, "Why haven't you given to Caesar what is Caeser's?"Where in that does taxing charities comes in? Aside from which, what do you care? The members of the church are already "giving" away more money than you do who ONLY pays their taxes! Church abiding citizens not only render to Caesar but pay beyond what they OWE. "Owe" being another operative word.

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General Motors is trying to sell you something. What is a witness talking about Jesus selling you?

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Salvation can't be purchased. Its given, just like any charitable deed.

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if someone working for GM simply tells a friend of theirs their personal opinion about how well-built GM's products are, what can you tax them for?

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You are still neglecting to explain why it should be taxed. I've given multiple reasons why it shouldn't, and apparently the government agrees with my reasoning. So please give some kind of reason why it should be taxed. If your parents send you a check for 100 dollars, should you claim that on your W-2? Its the same exact thing. I can give my money to whoever I want, so long as I legally pay the government what I owe them.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

It makes no difference whether anybody is getting rich or not. The question is, why should UK citizen shoulder the burder of the Church of England's financial difficulties by providing a tax exemption? What is the public interest in providing a subsidy to the church?Mick

I said you should pay taxes on all the money you collect (whether you collect that money for playing basketball or for preaching). The difference between you and the Lakers is that they have more fans. Since taxes were invented.A group is a corporation, remember? Corpus, body, group, organization.... Don't know where you got that. Not from me, that's for sure. And I already told you they are.You're using the "organized crime defense" - "We're a private club. We don't sell liquor. Our members just pay dues." I haven't said anything about taxing charities. I've been talking about taxing churches. I have explicitly said that charitable activities should be exempt. On the contrary, by paying less than their share of taxes, they're increasing my tax burden. They're taking money out of my pocket. But they're not paying the taxes that they (morally) owe. Instead of using the money for the good of society (feeding the hungry, etc.) they're skimming off the top for their own use. Danger, thin ice there, buddy. Are you saying that the church gives salvation?Once again, that's the organized crime defense. Money comes in the door, salvation goes out the door (or comfort, peace of mind, what have you). You can claim there's no "exchange", but the books have to balance. (That's how they got Al Capone.) I have explained: organizations like the Lakers and GM have to pay taxes, so should organizations like Joe's Church and Car Wash. You haven't shown any significant difference between those organizations. There are specific regulations regarding gifts and inheritances but yes, as a general rule they are taxable. But we're not talking about what is legal now. We're trying to get the law changed to be fair to everybody.Edited by Ringo, : Spe-elling.

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