Faith and other YEC: why even bother taking part in the discussion?

In what sense were we in him? Obviously, not literally.

Well, I guess I'll put it this way: Unbelievers' interpretations are certainly fallible. Believers, however, have the Holy Spirit, but are still fallible, only that by believing and trusting in Christ they have the essence of the truth of the Bible that unbelievers don't have, and by the Holy Spirit they recognize the Holy Spirit in the Bible.This message has been edited by Faith, 09-15-2005 12:34 AM

Actually, yes, literally, in that we are literally descended from him physically. This is one of those peculiar Biblical revelations that are found only in the Bible and nowhere else as far as I know. Literally it's even logical, as the genetic potential for every descendant is already present "in the loins of" our ancestors, but this connectedness to them, according to the Bible, extends even to our spiritual nature, to our inheriting the sin nature from Adam, and also spiritual influences from all our closer ancestors. There's a particular passage in the New Testament that states this principle of being literally -- both physically and spiritually -- "in" an ancestor. This is the example of Levi, one of Abraham's grandsons, being said to have "paid tithes" when his grandfather Abraham did though he wasn't yet conceived.

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Hebrews 7:4 Now consider how great this man [Melchizedek] was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils. 5 And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham; 6 but he whose genealogy is not derived from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7 Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the greater. 8 Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives. 9 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, 10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.

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This message has been edited by Faith, 09-15-2005 01:11 AM

I don't think I said that at all, you need to read my post again. I also gave the reason why. I know, annoying isn't it? It also sort of makes any sort of 'debate' pointless. Cheers.Brian.

Well if you wanna know what I think....All of the people are fallible some (most) of the time.Some of the people are fallible all of the time.Not all of us are fallible all of the time. There are those Holy Spirit moments....even atheists get them!

The only thing about this that confuses me is why a group of people coming from a common father would then scatter themselves..migrating thousands of miles...away from this father?
Was it human nature to disperse? If so, why then did cities begin?

Brian, you said... and and when asked if you had evidence of this, you said Well, I'm not a creationist, but I am a Christian and know many many creationists. Your description does not tally with the bulk of my experience.So I would like to ask for your evidence. If I fall into one of your "types", and thus I am not to be humoured, then may I remind you that we are in an EvC science forum, and it is not for you to decide to withold a request for evidence. Either show your evidence or retract your statement.

Aren't most Americans from Europe and Africa (having displaced the original American Indians)? Aren't modern Americans now both scattered across the US and, yet, in cities?It's not exactly the same thing, I know, but it does demonstrate that people multiply and scatter (but in clumps, if you will).Hope that helps.--JasonThis message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 09-15-2005 05:09 AM

tut - how could an old hand like Brian go so wrong..just preface it with it is my belief and then you are bullet-proof.

There's a couple of verses buried in Romans which kind of answers all this. Romans 1:16-17 "I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe. For in the Gospel, a righteousness from God is revealed which is from faith to faith...". (that by the way, is (i)faith, the highway along which belief travels enabling knowledge based (ii)faith - not Faith the debater )These verses (which incidently caused Martin Luther to suddenly 'get it' and led to the Reformation) is what causes Christians to enter into debates like this.a) Not ashamed of the Gospel. If a Christian is certain of the Gospel then all the slagging and insults and ridicule are by and large so much water off a ducks back. Any frustration comes out of despair - that the person with whom you debate doesn't 'get it'. Although many will see it as misguided meddling - it's their good we're after.b) The key part is that it is the Gospel which does the business not the person presenting it. Clever argument (were that in any way accepted to occur) isn't what causes a person 'to turn'. The Gospel (which has the power of God behind it) does. Debate is merely a vehicle for the Gospel. Call it subliminal advertising if you like. Now, have a look at the signature at the bottom of this post. Read it. Actually read it. Can you see anything about your behaviour getting you to God. Nope? Good. You've just read a bit of the Gospel. It is now in your brain. Forever. You may turn, you may not. But if you do, the Gospel is what will have done it.And if you do turn, do look me up in heaven will ya?

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

Ah CD go easy there. Let he who has not made a brash statement out of frustration etc. cast the first stone. I could understand Brian frustration dealing with Christians given the amount of time he seems to have debated them. He will of course never get an answer on his own terms, so it's understandlable that we can be seen to be evasive and obtuse.What would Jesus do here (and I don't mean his "white washed tombs" statement)?

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

Hi DBI've just read Admins warning on the direction of this thread so will have to end on uniformatism. Am becoming aware of my tendency to pull topics off topic. Some other time thus...Sorryiano

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

Hoi ParasomniumWill have to haul off-topic stuff to a halt. Admin warning on the direction of this thread noted.GroetjesIano

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

Sorry NWRAdmin warning on thread direction. Another day on this off-topic topic perhaps.Forgive the last-wordism here but it's hard to resist ...is an absolute statementThis message has been edited by iano, 15-Sep-2005 10:39 AM

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

You need to get out more then. My experience is my evidence, and my word is final. Whatever I say is true and is not up for debate, I wont debate with anyone who does not first begin the discussion by accepting the premise that I am perfect and everythign I say is true, I won't discuss anything with anyone who says that my word is not true. My infallible word is the evidence. Everything I say is true, I have never been shown to be wrong, if you look at it properly. I've shown my evidence, you just have to accept that my word is flawless, if I say they are sad, and lonely then that isn't up for debate.Brian