Profitable Christian Meetings

I think you have good intentions here, jaywill. But I think you're leaving one extreme (the expectation that only one person talks) and trading it in for another (the expectation that all people will talk).I think it would be better for you to take into account the fact that different people have different ways of dealing with things. This should lead you to the conclusion that any formal "expectations" for the meeting on how all people should react is undermining the reason why they are there.Some expectations are good, like:Come to the meeting to think and talk and focus on Jesus Christ.
Act as Christ-like as possible during the meetings (don't scream and yell or put down other people, don't swear, don't be a jerk...)
All people have the right to speak, all voices have the right to be heard, be respectful of other's thoughts and experiences about Jesus Christ. I would agree. I would only agree if you add "Some" to the beginning of this sentence. Not all people do this.
Not all people who appear to be "sitting passively and receiving entertainment" in your eyes are actually doing so.
Some people look that way to you when they are actually actively engaged in the best way they know how... by focusing their mind so much on the thoughts of Jesus Christ at hand, that they do not control any of their bodily expressions and motions as you might expect. The problem is that this is not how all people react when they are OVERFLOWING with goodly matters about Jesus Christ.Have you ever watched a team of atheletes win something before?
Most of the team will jump and scream and yell and seem to be physically releasing stress.
But not all of them. Some people experience this euphoria internally... the actions of talking or moving or anything external can actually decrease the focus of their inner thoughts and feelings on the incredible moment...People experience things differently.
The exact same euphoric moment... some are very outwardly physical about it, others are extremely internally focused about it.For those with the physical expression, not doing such things would decrease the experience of the moment.
For those with the internal focus, doing physical expressions would decrease the experience of the moment.My point is that if you insist that all people must be "bubbling over with thanksgiving, praise, exhortation, encouragement, prayer, singing, and clear reading of the Word of God in spirit" you will actually be reducing the amount of focus that some people are trying to have on Jesus Christ.This may be something along the lines of what Faith was trying to explain as well, but I'm not sure.

I associate that kind of glorious immersion in the things of Christ with revivals, which is why I've been praying and hoping for revival for a long time.

I agree with the focus being on Jesus. I will respect those who believe in God but may not yet know Jesus. And I will love and tolerate all people of all persuasions--but probably won't see them at these meetings. I believe that on an individual level revivals can happen anytime an individual seeks God. Nationally is another issue though. How can there ever be revival in a secular environment unless God Himself initiates it?Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Phat, your quote box says that jaywill wrote something that I did not write. Can you find out WHO wrote that and adjust the post?It says - "jaywill writes" - incorrectly I think.The other matters I may have some reply to shortly. Thanks.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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I think you have good intentions here, jaywill. But I think you're leaving one extreme (the expectation that only one person talks) and trading it in for another (the expectation that all people will talk).

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Greetings.If you check my posts carefully, I think you may notice that twice, I said something to this effect -There are times when one gifted or experienced person should occupy the speaking for a longer period of time. [paraphrase]You should find that this caveat as a balancing word was written by me TWICE in this thread so far. For example - Paul talked all night even until the morning. That was probably not an all saints speaking meeting.There is no question about it. At certain times bulk of the teaching or speaking is given to one or two saints. No argument from me about this.
But what is the TYPICAL situation among Christian gatherings ??
The so-called "laity" is PASSIVE.
The so-called "clergy" is deemed the only one qualified to speak much.This is abnormal and stunts the growth of many, many Christians.Other points addressed below.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Yes, I saw that in your posts.
It was even the very first thing I quoted you saying in *my* post.And my response to it was... that I agree with your position on it.I don't understand what you seem to be arguing with me about... I stated that I agree with you My issue was with going too far in the other direction... mandating something along the lines of getting *everyone* to participate in a certain, specific way.People are different.
They don't do any one thing in a particular, certain, specific way.If you try to set a bar that people need to be doing something specific in order to reflect on Jesus Christ... you're going to be actively preventing *some* people from being able to reflect on Jesus Christ at all.I don't think you want to do such a thing, so I was advising you to take the factual information into account... that people are different and won't all react or act in a way you think they should. Looking forward to it

You don't have to worry. Never forget that Paul said "all may LEARN ... and all be encouraged." I will attempt to calm some of those fears, for this to me is not merely academic. Now I should go back and see what else you contributed because I was not able to read your whole post.

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I would agree.

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Oops. OK we are on the same page up to here.

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I would only agree if you add "Some" to the beginning of this sentence. Not all people do this.

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That is quite true. Not all have such an attitude.

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Not all people who appear to be "sitting passively and receiving entertainment" in your eyes are actually doing so.

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Okay. You think I am being biased.
I'll accept that, some.

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Some people look that way to you when they are actually actively engaged in the best way they know how... by focusing their mind so much on the thoughts of Jesus Christ at hand, that they do not control any of their bodily expressions and motions as you might expect.

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It is good to encourage (not demand), but encourage speaking out of our love for the Lord Jesus.This is the apostle's tone in his question about hearing in order to receive blessing: He is concerned for hearing and understanding. This requires SPEAKING.Again the apostle outlines an ideal situation in which much prophesying convicts a visitor that God is among the participants. The visitor HEARD some speaking by "all" or by virtually "all".
If "all" only remain silent, or virtually "all" remain silent, the person may be convicted. But chances are HEARING something will be enlightening to him.This is not a deliberate meddling in his personal business "speaking". But the Holy Spirit convicts as the saints speak out concerning Jesus Christ. Unbeknownst to them the Spirit of God is convicting the visitor through their honest declaration of the riches of Jesus Christ.It is not important that we check to make sure ALL was literally fulfilled in the speaking. There is plenty of room for some to remain quiet and contemplative.But the burden of verse 24 and 25 is on abundant speaking. For lack of a better comparison, think for a moment of something like an anointed AA meeting. The testimonials of "all" or a substantial number is allowing the Holy Spirit to shine upon the life of the hearer with conviction.Isn't that Paul's model which he encourages here ?I know the context of verses 20 through 25 is the excess speaking of tongues. Yet the underlying principle is that much speaking of that which can be HEARD and UNDERSTOOD secures much profit to God in the meeting.

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The Christians have so enjoyed Christ during every other day of the week that they come OVERFLOWING with goodly matters to share about Jesus Christ.
The problem is that this is not how all people react when they are OVERFLOWING with goodly matters about Jesus Christ.

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Have you ever watched a team of atheletes win something before?
Most of the team will jump and scream and yell and seem to be physically releasing stress.

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I have seen this. We Christians have something more exciting to rejoice about.When I speak of all saints speaking, or virtually all saints speaking, some readers may imagine a chaotic chatter. To calm their concern I would remind them that the same chapter says God is a God of order. And that the prophesying is orderly - one by one, not all at the same time as the commotion of athletes.Am I right ? Now let's be reasonable. Here it is not "You may all be silently meditative one by one." It is that you may all SPEAK unto the Lord, speak out the Lord, spiritually SPEAK forth the Lord, ONE BY ONE, orderly.Isn't that the thrust of his exhortation ?"Wait. Some want to remain silent and contemplative. Do not insist that they speak."Okay. I agree we should not insist. How about there is time for both - contemplation and speaking ? How about there is ample opportunity to be still and meditative AND to speak out too ?How about we do both and encourage "all" or virtually "all" to speak out their thanks or praise or prayer or proclamation of the truth or enjoyment of Jesus Christ.Both my silence and my speaking should not be solely for myself. I express my love for the others by speaking WHEN it is time for me to speak. I also express my love for the brothers and sisters by remaining silent when it is someone else's turn to speak.Then I may be musing and contemplative about the Lord Jesus.Now this chapter 14 is ABOUT Christians meeting. Look at the things which require SPEAKING - A Psalm - requires speaking A teaching - requires speaking A revelation - requires speaking (unless it is solely for you alone) A tongue - requires speaking An interpretation of that tongue - requires speaking.All the things which Paul encourages us to HAVE when we come together require opening our MOUTHS ... to speak.All things done for BUILDING UP, in this context, really means all SPEAKING should be for edification - for building up.

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But not all of them. Some people experience this euphoria internally... the actions of talking or moving or anything external can actually decrease the focus of their inner thoughts and feelings on the incredible moment...

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Some Pentacostal meetings get very physical. My emphasis in this thread is not on dancing or thrashing one's body around, falling out, falling over each other.My burden in this thread at the moment is concerning orderly speaking which builds up - one by one.My burden here is not "What unfortunate thing MIGHT happen" but more on the overall tenor of brother Paul's fellowship in First Corinthians ch. 14.He desires that in our pursuit for the spiritual that to speak forth for the Lord be sought. That is what he really wants. I think that is what God really wants. There will always be freedom for you or me to be contemplative. Must leave now for a meeting.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

In the next couple of posts I may share about good prayer meeting practices.Then I hope to come back to demonstrate how wonderful Christian meetings need no gimmicks or worldly entertainment.They need the Word and the Spirit.
I will show how you can have very rich small group meetings with just the Word of God and the Spirit of God with our regenerated spirit.

Ha ha, I did not intend the athletic example to be taken so literally.I especially didn't want to start anything over who's ego is more excited about their rejoicing either... such a thing can only be determined by each individual.My only point with the athletic example was to show that some people react to excitement differently.
You seem to understand this.I can't tell if you plan to make room for such things, or if you're still going to insist that *all* speak as much as *jaywill* thinks they should. You seem to say both at the same time.I can only tell you that as I understand it the Bible says that all people are made in the image of God, and you can specify whatever other quotes from the Bible you'd like... it won't change the fact that some people would glorify Jesus Christ even more if they do not speak at all, and that's the way God made them in His image.Is it difficult to ascertain when someone is silently glorifying Jesus Christ or silently being lazy? I would say it's not, but others may disagree.I would say it's equally difficult (or easy) to identify when someone is preaching in a way that glorifies Jesus Christ vs. one who's preaching on the topic of Jesus, but their intentions are only to hear their own voice.What you do with this information is up to you, it's your group.Good luck

This reminds me of something. Early on in my believing life,that is, when I actually liked going to church rather than doing so out of obligation or other reasons, I would attend meetings where the Pastor would attempt to get everyone whipped up into an emotional frenzy--at least, thats how I perceived the meeting to be. He/she would say something like "Isn't God good? Turn to your neighbor and say 'God is so good' Turn to your other neighbor and say 'all the time'." Most of the audience would obediently do as the speaker suggested. I perceived a bit of fakery. I myself always preferred being honest rather than putting on a cheesy smile and responding like what Buzsaw used to call "a Sheeple". [cheesy smile] [/cheesy smile] My point is that everyone at the meeting should honestly feel joyful from deep within and never force such behavior to happen. Thats my opinion, anyway.

If I sounded over defensive, I am very sorry.
You know how Internet discussions go.Maybe I should write something about the benefit of being still and quiet before the Lord sometimes.

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This reminds me of something. Early on in my believing life,that is, when I actually liked going to church rather than doing so out of obligation or other reasons,

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You are a part of the church. The life within you longed to be with other parts of the church which were experiencing the same thing.The degradation of Christianity has befuddled millions into an attitude that we "go to church". More normal would be the realization that the church comes together.And Paul says, when we come together, each one HAS ... No it is not that only the clergy have. God wants EACH ONE to HAVE.There should be no clergy. There should be no laity. Of course some saints should be overseers as responsible ones. But the church comes together and each one should HAVE. This is God's ordained way. Under the overseership of a few saints who bear responsibility for the gathering, EACH ... ONE ... HAS. In the normal local church life we have learned that the principle that most releases the Spirit and builds up the members is that we come with something.It may not mean every meeting has to have a particular gift mentioned.
But I think the apostle aimed at the principle of none coming empty handed.
The Jesus Christ that we have lived through the week is the praise and enjoyment that we speak of when the church comes together.

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I would attend meetings where the Pastor would attempt to get everyone whipped up into an emotional frenzy--at least, thats how I perceived the meeting to be. He/she would say something like "Isn't God good? Turn to your neighbor and say 'God is so good' Turn to your other neighbor and say 'all the time'."

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It is perceived that this is healthy, that the ice is broken and that there is mutual greetings. And it is IS healthy. I am writing here that this line can be pursued even much more. "Whenever you come together" should apply to smaller group meetings as well. That is two coming together, say in your living room. The same blessing applies. Each one has something of the Lord.The same applies whenever three or four Christians may come together, say, at lunch time on the job. Each one has. Each one gets use to bringing some small or larger portion of Jesus Christ to share, to overflow to the others.Each one has refers to the things of God. I do not mean each one has a rock song or gossip. I do not mean each one has a favorite politician to talk about or each one has a movie to speak about. "Let all things be done for building up " applies to two in my living room or three or four at lunch time. The clergy / laity system has damaged Christians very much.I do not speak of anarchy. First Corinthians shows a good order in the meeting. And someone has to call the time to meet and perhaps the time to end the meeting. Or someone can set the general direction. IE "This morning how about we stay in the first chapter of the book of John?"Some direction is sometimes needed. But mutuality means each one supplies something and each one also receives something. Unless one is so new to the Christian life that they are like babes not ready to utter anything, each one can utter a praise, a thanksgiving, a word of wisdom, even reading a passage with an open heart and the release of the spirit.The Lord's spirit is one with the human spirit in the Christian: Each Christian brother or sister must be encouraged that the Lord Jesus is one spirit with their human spirit. That means Christ is in them. That means Jesus Christ is united with them. Jesus Christ in His form as the pneumatic life giving Holy Spirit is mingled with the believer's regenerated human spirit.So our speaking from our regenerated spirit releases Christ into the meeting. And then we can build up one another in love.The responsible ones who are gifted are to perfect the SAINTS ... to do the work of the ministry. The more experienced ones perfect the others to do as they do. The leaders of the local church must perfect the saints to do the work of the ministry.King James Bible, I think, has a semicolon supplied in this passage which gives the false concept that the gifted ones do all the work of the ministry. Notice the difference: If you notice how the New King James differs from the Old King James. I recommend the New King James as expressing Paul's thought better.The apostles, prophets, evangelists, and shepherd / teachers perfect the SAINTS to do the work of the ministry. This rather than all the work of ministry is done only by the apostles, prophets, evangelists and shepherd / teachers. In other words God wants these gifted ones to teach the saints to do what they do.

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Most of the audience would obediently do as the speaker suggested. I perceived a bit of fakery. I myself always preferred being honest rather than putting on a cheesy smile and responding like what Buzsaw used to call "a Sheeple". [cheesy smile] [/cheesy smile] My point is that everyone at the meeting should honestly feel joyful from deep within and never force such behavior to happen. Thats my opinion, anyway.

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May the Lord recover us that we normally and mutually feel encouraged to each come with a building up portion of our enjoyment of Christ. And at home is a good place to start and practice.This has been a tremendous blessing to my family and the churching saints who live near me.Let me quote the passage above in the Recovery Version New Testament: So Paul says when we come together, let all things be done for the building up.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I'm not saying what I want to say...allow me to reword my response.What I actually mean't to say: Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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My point is that everyone at any meeting should honestly feel joyful from deep within and never force a given behavior to happen.

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I agree that we should be genuine and not phony or fake.
Excuse me if I seemed to have missed your main point.Now having said that, I would say that the MOST genuine one, the MOST sincere one, and the MOST real one is Jesus Himself. What we want to move toward is living in union with Jesus, the REAL one - the truth. Then when we come together, we overflow something of our enjoyment of living Christ.That will be real.Could that sometimes involve tears or sorrow? Yes. We may be in the midst of a sore trial. Christians are not exempt from any of the misfortunes which befall unbelievers. Our growth in life necessitates that we suffer things which drive us out of spending our own resources but being supplied by His.So, genuineness is desirable. And no one is more genuine than Jesus Himself.Here is where the smaller group meeting is helpful. Because of the personal nature of some experiences which may cause us tears, it is difficult to open up before a large group of people. But with a few trusted ones with whom we have learned to open up more, we may get more personal.In a meeting with a hundred people, we might not open ourselves up this much. But before two, three, four, or five brothers or sisters whom we have learned to entrust more of our private lives, we may feel to be genuine about what we are going through.The small group meeting therefore helps brothers and sisters to get more detailed attention then the otherwise might not get in a larger setting. So the meeting of a few in ones home furnishes the intimacy where one can open up a little more to trusted Christians.The Bible says for us to "Rejoice in the Lord." We are not told we have to rejoice in our painful situation. But we are to rejoice "in the Lord". Even in our speaking out of our difficult circumstances, we may speak in faith rejoicing in the Lord.We should not expect to be all smiles all the time.
Sometime the one speaking may seem to be having no hard time to someone, but actually she is. Actually, he IS having a difficult time. He may be offering "the sacrifice of praise.". He would like to feel sorry for himself, or complain, or murmur, or blame. But this would bring spiritual death into the meeting. He denies himself and offers praise IN his difficulty. He offers the sacrifice of praise.God honors that kind of faith. He came to the meeting very heavy. But because of speaking in faith and in sincerity, he leaves strengthened supernaturally. God honors this kind of speaking in faith.So the small group meeting is good when you are not all smiles outwardly. Joy is a little different from happiness perhaps. You have JOY in the Lord in spite of pressing difficulty. And you speak out God, speak forth God, speak God into those present. You may also take a brother or sister aside in more privacy and open up fully about the difficulty of your circumstances.This is a profitable aspect of meeting. And small groups or cell groups or meetings in home is being discovered by many congregations as giving a chance of more detailed and personal edification to occur.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.