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Author Topic:   Hammer found in Cretaceous layer
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 160 (180321)
01-24-2005 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by RAZD
01-07-2005 10:54 AM


Re: Say What?
Would you agree that it would be possible to re-excavate such a collapse and find the cup "embedded" in coal?
This is not likely the circumstances of the Baugh discovery, though possible. Likely this piece turned up in a circumstance where it happened to become visible to someone near it, such as at the outer areas of a collapse, a wall of coal intact after the blast, or in a coal cart/truck transporting coal chunks, et al.
I think of the straw punched through the telephone pole by a tornado ...
Yah and lots of other straws in all kinds of situations after the tornadoe, so as not to hit things with great force. The straw in the pole just happened to hit it precisely so it could happen, didn't it. By the same token, the cup chunk likely just happened to emerge precisely to be found.
and as long as there are reasonable possibilities I am not going to leap to any one. k? especially one that doesn't involve reasonable explanations.
Good. I'm not either.
Btw, my apologies for not getting back to you sooner. Been engrossed in other stuff and outa sight, outa mind til Schraf reminded me about it. Thanks for your patience.

In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by RAZD, posted 01-07-2005 10:54 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by RAZD, posted 01-25-2005 7:17 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 107 of 160 (180323)
01-24-2005 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by roxrkool
01-10-2005 12:12 AM


Buz, what do you think about the fire and explosion that happened two years before the cup was discovered? Is this a plausible enough explanation?
How would that be significantly relevant? Certainly not relevant enough to classify as an explanation, would it?
Thanks for your patience. This thread got away and outa mind before I got back to it.

In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by roxrkool, posted 01-10-2005 12:12 AM roxrkool has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by roxrkool, posted 01-25-2005 12:47 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 160 (180325)
01-24-2005 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by edge
01-09-2005 5:59 PM


Re: Hmmm, Makes one wonder.....
That is not the point. The point is that nothing you have is actually, scientifically documented. In fact many times the artifact is not found in the coal, but only SAID to have been there. From that point, credulity takes over.
I don't have anything. Baugh has it. I'm just posting observations and some possibilities that some of Baugh's skeptics might not have considered.
1. Hmmm, all this talk about bogus real looking archeological stuff makes one wonder just how much of you people's ideological alleged evidence has been proven not bogus and how much of it has been subjected to the analytic scrutiny of creation scientists for fairness an balance.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Molds can be created easily, especially when the audience is credulous.
Granted, but I have to distinguish authentic stuff all the time in my business. From what I saw on TV up close, imo, this would be a tough one to fake, but I suppose a possibility. Molded stuff definitely looks molded and easily detected by the surface and mold marks.
Do you mean coal a few centuries old, or mines a few centuries old?
I mean coal which became coal a few centuries ago.
My apologies to you also, for being so long answering.

In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by edge, posted 01-09-2005 5:59 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by edge, posted 01-24-2005 8:50 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 109 of 160 (180330)
01-24-2005 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Buzsaw
01-24-2005 8:29 PM


Re: Hmmm, Makes one wonder.....
1. Hmmm, all this talk about bogus real looking archeological stuff makes one wonder just how much of you people's ideological alleged evidence has been proven not bogus and how much of it has been subjected to the analytic scrutiny of creation scientists for fairness an balance.
Actually, a lot of ideas have been shown to be bogus, but those are usually not the ideas that end up being published and validated by the scientific communitly.
Do you at least have a picture of this cup? We always hear about such things as hammers embedded in rock, etc., but when we see the pictures it turns out nothing like the description.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Buzsaw, posted 01-24-2005 8:29 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by JonF, posted 01-24-2005 9:25 PM edge has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 110 of 160 (180337)
01-24-2005 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by edge
01-24-2005 8:50 PM


Re: Hmmm, Makes one wonder.....
Do you at least have a picture of this cup?
The Iron Cup in Coal.
Note that replicas are available ... Replicas .. and the replicas are significantly different from the original.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by edge, posted 01-24-2005 8:50 PM edge has not replied

  
MiguelG
Member (Idle past 1976 days)
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


Message 111 of 160 (180338)
01-24-2005 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by JonF
01-09-2005 11:58 AM


Re: Mine Trixters
Just to add my own 2 cents worth: coal dust (plentiful in any coal mine - as witnessed by many a prematurely deceased coal miner from related lung disease) can accrete around objects and solidify around it under a number of circumstances which include moisture, pressure & time.
I too wonder why creationists readily defend Baugh's reluctance to get these items properly tested by professional laboratories and yet automatically dismiss the opinions of people knowledgable about geological processes?
One way or the other, knowing for sure is better than having your beliefs associated with charlatanry surely?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by JonF, posted 01-09-2005 11:58 AM JonF has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Buzsaw, posted 01-24-2005 9:50 PM MiguelG has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 112 of 160 (180340)
01-24-2005 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by MiguelG
01-24-2005 9:26 PM


Re: Mine Trixters
coal dust (plentiful in any coal mine - as witnessed by many a prematurely deceased coal miner from related lung disease) can accrete around objects and solidify around it under a number of circumstances which include moisture, pressure & time.
1. Do we have any examples of this for comparison?
2. How much time would it take for concreted dust train to actually look like hard coal chunks so as to look like normal coal?
3. Likely the product from this would be quite easily distinguished by people in the know. I'm sure they're welcome to observe Baughs specimine on site.

In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by MiguelG, posted 01-24-2005 9:26 PM MiguelG has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by edge, posted 01-24-2005 10:25 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 113 of 160 (180347)
01-24-2005 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Buzsaw
01-24-2005 9:50 PM


Re: Mine Trixters
2. How much time would it take for concreted dust train to actually look like hard coal chunks so as to look like normal coal?
The thing is, we don't know that it looked like normal coal. I have heard many things from laymen only to be disapppointed by the reality. A trained and experienced person should be able to tell the difference, but as yet, I do not see anything that would lead me to believe this instance of a buried artifact. The picture is less than convincing. Where is the mold that the affidavit mentions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Buzsaw, posted 01-24-2005 9:50 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Buzsaw, posted 01-25-2005 1:17 AM edge has not replied

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 988 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 114 of 160 (180367)
01-25-2005 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Buzsaw
01-24-2005 8:07 PM


buz writes:
How would that be significantly relevant? Certainly not relevant enough to classify as an explanation, would it?
Why wouldn't it? Explosions in coal mines result in extreme heat production, collapse, and pressure. How is that not a viable explanation for the 'cup' being encased in coal?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Buzsaw, posted 01-24-2005 8:07 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Buzsaw, posted 01-25-2005 12:58 AM roxrkool has not replied
 Message 116 by Buzsaw, posted 01-25-2005 1:06 AM roxrkool has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 160 (180369)
01-25-2005 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by roxrkool
01-25-2005 12:47 AM


Why wouldn't it? Explosions in coal mines result in extreme heat production, collapse, and pressure. How is that not a viable explanation for the 'cup' being encased in coal?
How would heat from an explosion melt and reform coal to look like natural coal? I believe it would rather burn some of it and fragmatize the other.

In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by roxrkool, posted 01-25-2005 12:47 AM roxrkool has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 160 (180371)
01-25-2005 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by roxrkool
01-25-2005 12:47 AM


Why wouldn't it? Explosions in coal mines result in extreme heat production, collapse, and pressure. How is that not a viable explanation for the 'cup' being encased in coal?
Your proposition would require an explosion to melt natural coal which would then harden to look exactly the same. Blow up a chunk of coal and see what happens. (You do it, not me.)

In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by roxrkool, posted 01-25-2005 12:47 AM roxrkool has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 160 (180373)
01-25-2005 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by edge
01-24-2005 10:25 PM


Re: Mine Trixters
The thing is, we don't know that it looked like normal coal. I have heard many things from laymen only to be disapppointed by the reality. A trained and experienced person should be able to tell the difference, but as yet, I do not see anything that would lead me to believe this instance of a buried artifact. The picture is less than convincing. Where is the mold that the affidavit mentions?
I agree that that picture doesn't cut it. I saw it on TV once quite a while ago and it looked pretty good. I'm going to continue watching for more stuff on it. I do like the fossilized finger and hammer which he has. I don't see how he could come up with a number of good fake things. It would seem that quantity lends a measure of credence to each.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by edge, posted 01-24-2005 10:25 PM edge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by PaulK, posted 01-25-2005 3:48 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 118 of 160 (180384)
01-25-2005 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Buzsaw
01-25-2005 1:17 AM


Re: Mine Trixters
Of the three the "pot" is the only one likely to be a fake as such.
If the hammer was lost in the 19th Century and trapped in a concretion between then and the time it was found then it isn't a fake. But it isn't evidence of creation either.
If the "finger" is a fossil at all it might be a root cast. But it certainly isn't a fossil human finger. But it seems to be a natural formation that looks a little bit like a finger rather than a fake.
Even the pot might not be a fake - we've got a suggestion on the table that may explain it as the product of an accident. Whether that explanation works or not I don't know - and I would like to see more evidnece (if nothing else I would like to see evidence that similar posts were used down mines at the time - that would be very significant).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Buzsaw, posted 01-25-2005 1:17 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Buzsaw, posted 01-31-2005 1:05 AM PaulK has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 119 of 160 (180398)
01-25-2005 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Buzsaw
01-24-2005 7:59 PM


Re: Say What?
buzaw writes:
my apologies for not getting back to you sooner.
no prob: I understand the number imbalance and the effect that has. I usually take no answer as no real issue with the post and leave it at that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Buzsaw, posted 01-24-2005 7:59 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Juhrahnimo
Inactive Member


Message 120 of 160 (181518)
01-28-2005 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Percy
01-06-2005 9:34 AM


?
Hi Percy,
Not to throw this topic off course, but:
Percy writes:
....And that we have a member right here at EvC Forum who's invented a perpetual motion machine, but hasn't been able to bring it to market?
Umm, you're joking, right? I've seen some of your hilarious posts, like your Clark Gable photos, but this one has me worried about you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Percy, posted 01-06-2005 9:34 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Percy, posted 01-29-2005 8:43 AM Juhrahnimo has replied

  
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