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Author Topic:   no intelligent design in australian schools!
ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5162 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 1 of 11 (253559)
10-20-2005 10:39 PM


Looks like it's Australia's turn to have this discussion:
Link to Article
Don't teach design theory: scientists
By David Rood
October 21, 2005
AUSTRALIA'S scientific community has united to oppose the teaching of "intelligent design" in schools, saying it would open classrooms to unscientific views such as spoon-bending and alien abductions.
In a letter to newspapers, a coalition of 70,000 science researchers, academics and teachers have called on Australian governments and educators to stop intelligent design being taught as science.
"To do so (teach intelligent design) would make a mockery of Australian science teaching and throw open the door of science classes to similarly unscientific world views ” be they astrology, spoon-bending, flat-earth cosmology or alien abductions ” and crowd out the teaching of real science."
Intelligent design argues that life is too complex to have evolved solely through the evolutionary theory of natural selection, so there must have been a higher intelligence involved.
Critics have labelled the theory a front for biblical Creationism. In recent months, intelligent design has won the backing of US President George Bush and Catholic Cardinal George Pell.
"We don't want a simple dogmatic teaching of evolution," Sydney Archbishop Pell said in a recent speech. "We would want (teachers) to talk about the enormous, significant problems in the evolutionary history and these are freely admitted by people who study these things."
Federal Education Minister Brendan Nelson has also given the theory his qualified support, saying it should be taught in schools alongside evolution, if parents wished. In August, The Age revealed that Campus Crusade for Christ, a Christian group that operates in Australia's universities, was seeking support for the distribution of a DVD about intelligent design to every Australian high school for inclusion in the curriculum.
The open letter ” signed by groups such as the Australian Academy of Science and the Australian Science Teachers Association ” argues that intelligent design, unlike evolution, does not qualify as a science.
For a theory to be considered scientific, the letter says, it must be testable by experiment or observation, the results should be able to be reproduced and the theory should explain more than is already known.
"But not being able to imagine or explain how something happened other than by making a leap of faith to supernatural intervention is no basis for any science: that is a theological or philosophical notion," it says.
The executive director of Focus on the Family Australia and an intelligent design supporter, Colin Bunnett, said comparing the theory with spoon-bending and aliens was extreme and puerile. Intelligent design was asking scientific, not hypothetical, questions about the theory of evolution, he said.
"Please Mr Evolutionist, give us your answer as to how it happened and if you can't then how are you proving it?" Mr Bunnett said. "If you can't explain it . are they not then taking a step of faith to say evolution is the answer." Focus on the Family is the Australian distributor of the DVD on intelligent design.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Angus, posted 10-20-2005 11:03 PM ohnhai has not replied
 Message 4 by Thor, posted 10-20-2005 11:12 PM ohnhai has not replied

  
Angus
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 11 (253562)
10-20-2005 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ohnhai
10-20-2005 10:39 PM


I've been lurking on this site for ages, and when I read this topic, I just had to reply...The Sydney Morning Herald had a similar story today as well. I was a bit saddened to see ID actually being taught down here; I previously was under the impression that we managed to escape this brand of US Bible Belt (melo)drama. At least the Federal Minister for Education clarified his position on ID.
link

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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 11 (253563)
10-20-2005 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Angus
10-20-2005 11:03 PM


Welcome you EvC Angus
Glad you delurked.
At the bottom of this message are some links to threads that might make your stay here even more enjoyable.
Again, welcome to our expanding membership from down under.

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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2 by Angus, posted 10-20-2005 11:03 PM Angus has not replied

      
    Thor
    Member (Idle past 5910 days)
    Posts: 148
    From: Sydney, Australia
    Joined: 12-20-2004


    Message 4 of 11 (253565)
    10-20-2005 11:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by ohnhai
    10-20-2005 10:39 PM


    Well, that just about ruined my day.
    I didn't think it was becoming such an issue here. I am glad at least that the scientific community is openly voicing its opposition. Let's hope sanity prevails.
    I might keep an eye out for these campus crusade people at Usyd, there is one or two things I'd like to say to them.

    The probability that someone is watching you is directly proportional to the stupidity of your action.

    This message is a reply to:
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    Angus
    Inactive Member


    Message 5 of 11 (253580)
    10-21-2005 12:32 AM
    Reply to: Message 4 by Thor
    10-20-2005 11:12 PM


    Have to say I didn't really run afoul of too many zealots when I was at Usyd; although one does come to mind. Mature-age student, scored 96% in undergrad biochemistry exams. Scores like this were regarded as incredible by mere mortals. Zealous to the point he would stand up in a 300 person lecture, and tell the lecturer not to swear. Needless to say, he was not particularly popular. It would've been very interesting to hear his views with regard to Evo vs. Creationism.

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     Message 4 by Thor, posted 10-20-2005 11:12 PM Thor has not replied

      
    Nighttrain
    Member (Idle past 3993 days)
    Posts: 1512
    From: brisbane,australia
    Joined: 06-08-2004


    Message 6 of 11 (253597)
    10-21-2005 3:09 AM
    Reply to: Message 2 by Angus
    10-20-2005 11:03 PM


    ID and IC
    Gee, you have to quick around here, I was going to post the news tommorrow
    Welcome, Angus.
    The chief executive of Christian Schools Australia, Stephen O'Doherty, said intelligent design was likely to be discussed in science classes in many Christian schools and this was beneficial for learning.
    It was a complex issue, he said. "The idea that there is an unexplained scientific hole in evolutionary theory . is a debate some scientists are having. To have that discussion in class is good and leads to questions like: how does scientific method work and what is science?"
    O`Doherty was on ABC radio today waffling on about how he had read Behe and Dembski and they had produced impeccable flaws in Evolution--yada,yada,yada. IC is the only way to fly--blah,blah,blah. ID proves something or other--I think I fell asleep. How do twerps like this rise to the top? No, don`t bring up Little Johnnie.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2 by Angus, posted 10-20-2005 11:03 PM Angus has replied

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    Angus
    Inactive Member


    Message 7 of 11 (253608)
    10-21-2005 5:04 AM
    Reply to: Message 6 by Nighttrain
    10-21-2005 3:09 AM


    Re: ID and IC
    O'Doherty misrepresents that which is debated within evolutionary theory; there is no hole which is a fatal flaw. His second comment about what the scientific method actually is valid; to the point that ID can be held up as an example of bad science.

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    AdminNosy
    Administrator
    Posts: 4754
    From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Joined: 11-11-2003


    Message 8 of 11 (253629)
    10-21-2005 9:21 AM
    Reply to: Message 7 by Angus
    10-21-2005 5:04 AM


    Re: ID and IC
    Please don't start to discuss the actual weaknesses of ID here. Let's stay to a narrow topic about the extent of it in Oz. Thanks.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by Angus, posted 10-21-2005 5:04 AM Angus has not replied

      
    Thor
    Member (Idle past 5910 days)
    Posts: 148
    From: Sydney, Australia
    Joined: 12-20-2004


    Message 9 of 11 (259492)
    11-14-2005 12:40 AM


    Update
    Still happening down here I'm afraid. The linked article was on the front page of the Sydney Morning Herald today.
    Link
    It seems the issue is becoming significant enough here to cause the SMH to do a series of articles on it this week. Might be worth a read for locals or anyone else interested in what's happening in Oz.
    What can I say...bloody creationists....

    The probability that someone is watching you is directly proportional to the stupidity of your action.

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    Nighttrain
    Member (Idle past 3993 days)
    Posts: 1512
    From: brisbane,australia
    Joined: 06-08-2004


    Message 10 of 11 (259520)
    11-14-2005 2:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 9 by Thor
    11-14-2005 12:40 AM


    Re: Update
    From the SMH article
    Campus Crusade for Christ's national director, Bill Hodgson, said the DVD would be sent to all 3000 public and private schools by the end of the year. "We're making available to schools a copy of the DVD as a resource," he said. "There is no prescription on what people do with it." Schools that refused to "re-examine the basis of evolution" were engaging in "reactionary censorship".
    And
    A commonly cited example of this complex life is the flagellum, a natural "outboard motor" that propels a bacterium along. The argument is that it could not have been produced by the incremental steps of evolution, because it would not function if it was missing any of its parts.
    Bugger the flagellum, let them answer why the Designer failed with so many species--oops--'kinds'.

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    Angus
    Inactive Member


    Message 11 of 11 (259521)
    11-14-2005 2:56 AM
    Reply to: Message 10 by Nighttrain
    11-14-2005 2:12 AM


    Re: Update
    At least the article had a subtly negative view of ID. One important point it makes is the introduction, how do scientists best counter ID?

    This message is a reply to:
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