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Author Topic:   Genes and Personality
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1 of 30 (221281)
07-01-2005 11:44 PM


Nobody questions the fact that we inherit to one degree or another the personality attributes of our parents. Is this inherited in the same manner as our physical attributes, or in other words, have biologists been able to demonstrate that our personalities have been formed by our genes, in the same manner that we inherit blue eyes?

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Chiroptera, posted 07-02-2005 11:27 AM GDR has replied
 Message 13 by Philip, posted 07-04-2005 2:01 PM GDR has replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 30 (221314)
07-02-2005 10:29 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 30 (221329)
07-02-2005 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by GDR
07-01-2005 11:44 PM


This seems very close in subject matter to a recent debate between Mr. Jack and holmes on evolutionary psychology.

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 Message 1 by GDR, posted 07-01-2005 11:44 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by GDR, posted 07-02-2005 1:18 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 4 of 30 (221347)
07-02-2005 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Chiroptera
07-02-2005 11:27 AM


Thanks Chiroptera
I hadn't seen that. It does seem to me however that the final conclusion that was come to, as it rgards my question, is that personality traits are at least in large part inherited.
The reason for believing this is by observation of individuals and individual families. I am left wondering is there any empirical evidence from DNA research where a specific gene was identified that produced specific personality traits?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Chiroptera, posted 07-02-2005 1:50 PM GDR has replied
 Message 7 by Silent H, posted 07-03-2005 9:32 AM GDR has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 30 (221352)
07-02-2005 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by GDR
07-02-2005 1:18 PM


I am not aware of any explicit links between specific genes and specific behaviours or personality traits. There may be some links between certain psychological disorders and specific genes, but I don't know. Most of the evidence in favor of the heredity of personality traits come from attempting to observe how personality traits run in families, twin studies, and cross cultural comparisons. There are also some studies that show that some physical characteristics of the brain correlate with certain behaviours, like homosexuality in men.
Some of the more pathetic "evidence" used to support the heredity of personality traits include trying to show how certain behaviours could have some sort of adaptive value. Like a long ago Newsweek article put it: it is clear that men have a biological preference for women in short skirts since women in long dresses would trip over the hem and squash their babies.
I tend to be very, very biased against putting too much emphasis on genetics as a source of personality and behaviour, perhaps unreasonably so. One reason is that Stephen Jay Gould, whose popular science essays I greatly admire, was very critical of it. The other reason is that by the time I read about studies supposedly supporting a biological basis for certain behaviours in the popular media, it tends to be used to justify certain exploitive aspects of American culture.

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 Message 4 by GDR, posted 07-02-2005 1:18 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by GDR, posted 07-02-2005 11:20 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 6 of 30 (221396)
07-02-2005 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Chiroptera
07-02-2005 1:50 PM


Memes
I had forgotten about reading Dawkins and about his concept of memes. As I understood what he was saying that we had our personality passed down from generation to generation via memes in our brains.
I remember when reading about this that this all seemed to require a great deal of faith as there was no evidence to suggest that these memes existed except for the fact that it was pretty obvious that we do inherit personality traits from our parents and even further back.
In this thread I did want to find out if there is any empirical evidence that personality traits are inherited as a result of our genes. It would appear that there isn't any.
If we agree that we do inherit personality traits it seems to me that there are a couple of possibilities. The first is that these traits are being handed down as a part of our genome or there is something metaphysical or spiritual involved.
I guess you could say that it is done with either physical genes or spiritual genes.
I think that it makes for an interesting discussion but of course I can't see us proving that we have spiritual genes. Possibly however, biologists will be able to find physical genes that produce these traits, or be able to exhaust all physical possibilities leaving only the metaphysical as the answer.

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Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 7 of 30 (221428)
07-03-2005 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by GDR
07-02-2005 1:18 PM


It does seem to me however that the final conclusion that was come to, as it rgards my question, is that personality traits are at least in large part inherited.
That is not correct. The conclusion is that the actual proportion of traits which are inherited are unknown, and may well remain unknown or unknowable for some time.
In fact, depending on what you mean by "traits", it is possible that very few or all are inherited. That is probably one of the first things that has to get specified. There is currently an equivocation in that field between behaviors and functions which might underlie behaviors and so effect them in some way (though not in an absolutely detremined way).
I am left wondering is there any empirical evidence from DNA research where a specific gene was identified that produced specific personality traits?
As of this date I am pretty confident that the answer is 100% no.
And it is my position (which I will add has been tested by two different proponents of Evo Psych) is that the answers to such questions will require much more genetic, and neurological research. And then I feel it is likely that genetics won't play as an important a role as developmental environment.
Certainly the brain is a physical organ and so one's very being, including behaviors, are manifested from a set of physical objects and chemical functions. However genes are likely just going to be presets for how a brain will develop given an environment, rather than in any environment. And even then it may be more probabilistic then deterministic.
By the way, anyone interested in the physical nature of who we are (genetically determined or other) I highly recommend Oliver Sacks' book The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by GDR, posted 07-02-2005 1:18 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by GDR, posted 07-04-2005 2:33 AM Silent H has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 8 of 30 (221584)
07-04-2005 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Silent H
07-03-2005 9:32 AM


My biological father died in service towards the end of WWII just prior to my first birthday. Mom married again just after I turned three and he has always been Dad. I spent very little time with my biological father but I have many of his physical traits but I also have many of his personality traits.
I don't think that there can be much doubt that we inherit personality traits from our parents. If it isn't in the genes then where is it?
Dawkins suggests that it is memes and passed along through the brain some how, but that is pure conjecture and there is no empirical evidence as far as I know.
As a Theist I believe that there is a part of us that exists that is outside the physical. As our personality is part of our consciousness I'm suggesting that we have, for lack of a better term, spiritual genes.
Obviously this is just something to think about as it can't be tested but I think it makes more sense than Dawkins memes but that is just my opinion. Whether it is memes or spiritual genes it is really a faith issue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Silent H, posted 07-03-2005 9:32 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Silent H, posted 07-04-2005 5:07 AM GDR has replied
 Message 11 by gengar, posted 07-04-2005 12:15 PM GDR has replied
 Message 29 by latsot, posted 07-09-2005 1:03 PM GDR has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 9 of 30 (221603)
07-04-2005 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by GDR
07-04-2005 2:33 AM


Obviously this is just something to think about as it can't be tested but I think it makes more sense than Dawkins memes but that is just my opinion. Whether it is memes or spiritual genes it is really a faith issue.
Actually it can be in some ways. With advanced genetic and neurological research/understanding of how the brain forms and functions, as well as how brain physical forms and functions relate to behaviors and traits, we can start weeding out some of the above possibilities.
We are not nearly at that point now, and it is a field of exploration. Having been reading up on neuro alot recently I find it one of the most interesting fields of research going on at this time. It begins to place identity and traits in a physical object capable of being studied. Again I recommend Sacks' book The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat.
If personality traits are at all spiritual, how then do you explain the change of personality and behavior in individuals with physical brain changes? It seems to me the only possible explanation would be that the physical brain acts as a conduit for the spirit, and perhaps brain abnormalities can skew the spirit's ability to properly control the body.
I spent very little time with my biological father but I have many of his physical traits but I also have many of his personality traits.
This is not sarcastic, but goes back to a question I raised in my original reply: What do you define as personality traits? Which ones do you share with your biological father and how do you know this?
Remember that I am not excluding this possibility, though I do doubt that a majority of ones personality would be shaped in this way.
Dawkins suggests that it is memes and passed along through the brain some how, but that is pure conjecture and there is no empirical evidence as far as I know.
Memes sound like BS to me.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by GDR, posted 07-04-2005 2:33 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by GDR, posted 07-04-2005 11:09 AM Silent H has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 10 of 30 (221655)
07-04-2005 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Silent H
07-04-2005 5:07 AM


holmes writes:
If personality traits are at all spiritual, how then do you explain the change of personality and behavior in individuals with physical brain changes? It seems to me the only possible explanation would be that the physical brain acts as a conduit for the spirit, and perhaps brain abnormalities can skew the spirit's ability to properly control the body.
I think you answered your question in the same way that I would have. I think the brain is basically a computer. I believe that there is something external to the brain that provides input. If a computer is damaged, the inputs that you put in via the keyboard might give you an entirely different result that what you want.
Of course the input or the keyboard can be damaged as well. I may be born with various personality traits, but if I had an abusive childhood I would no doubt be a very different person than I am now. It is the old nature versus nurture argument but what we are obviously talking about is the nature.
holmes writes:
What do you define as personality traits? Which ones do you share with your biological father and how do you know this?
I think the best way that I can go at this is the Myers-Briggs model and the A/B personality types. I hunted around and found a site with a brief synopsis of these types and I'll paste them in here.
Jungian Types, Myers-Briggs, & the Four Temperaments
Jungian psychological types are probably the most widely used and amongst the best-known. Jung's typology emerges from Jung's deep, holistic philosophy and psychology about the person. Jung viewed the ultimate psychological task as the process of individuation, based on the strengths and limitations of one's psychological type.
Myers-Briggs developed the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, a commercially available questionnaire, which is widely used in business and training, etc. and which provides information and exercises for better understanding one's own personality type and others with who the individual interacts and works.
Keirsey has renamed and reconceptualized the Jungian types, but they relate very closely to the Jungian types. Keirsey refers to "temperaments" rather than personality.
Underlying all these typologies are four personality traits (functions):
Extroversion (E) --- Introversion (I): Do you recharge your energy via external contact & activity (Extroversion) or spending time in your inner space (Introversion)?
Intuition (N) --- Sensing (S): Do you rely on your inner voice (Intuition) or observation (Sensing)?
Thinking (T) --- Feeling (F): When making decisions, what do you rely most on? Your thoughts or your feelings?
Judgement (J) --- Perception (P): Do you tend to set schedules and organize your life (Judgement), or do you tend to leave the options open and see what happens (Perception)?
Type A / B Personalities
Meyer Friedman, an American cardiologist, noticed in the 1940's that the chairs in his waiting room got worn out from the edges. They hypothesized that his patients were driven, impatient people, who sat on the edge of their seats when waiting. They labelled these people "Type A" personalities. Type A personalities are work-aholics, always busy, driven, somewhat impatient, and so on. Type B personalities, on the other hand are laid back and easy going. "Type A personality" has found its way into general parlance.
I took the Myers-Briggs test years ago and I was an ESTJ. I have always been interested in what my biological father was like. I have talked to my mother extensively as well as other relatives. I applied for and received his military record. From all I have been able to glean we were very similar, when I consider the Myers-Briggs model.
I am an A type while the rest of my family are B types. I have no doubt from what I know of my biological father that he was also an A type personality.
holmes writes:
Memes sound like BS to me.
Frankly I agree, but I'm not at all qualified to base that on anything but opinion.
I do think that Dawkin's work on genes is instructive as far as it goes however to indicate that there is something inherited that seems to be functioning outside of our genome as it is now understood. With Dawkins being an Atheist and myself being a Theist we tend to look for different sources for these characteristics, but we both agree that they exist regardless of the source.
I have no doubt myself that we have a spiritual component which is termed soul, spirit or consciousness. This has been gone over on other threads about what evidence there is for this but very briefly I contend that in my consciousness there is a "me" that isn't ageing along with the rest of my body. It has just always been me no matter what my age. That consciousness that is "me" has gained knowledge, (arguably wisdom ) and so on but it is just as, or more, vibrant than it was when my body was twenty.
The reason I asked the question was I was interested in this whole idea and knowing very little about genetics I had been wondering if there was a genetic component to all of this. It appears that there isn't, at least at this point, which leaves my concept of spiritual genes as a reasonable possibility, at least if one accepts the metaphysical as a possibility.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Silent H, posted 07-04-2005 5:07 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Silent H, posted 07-05-2005 5:32 AM GDR has replied

  
gengar
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 30 (221664)
07-04-2005 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by GDR
07-04-2005 2:33 AM


Memes
Dawkins suggests that it is memes and passed along through the brain some how, but that is pure conjecture and there is no empirical evidence as far as I know.
It's been some time since I read the 'Selfish Gene' but as I recall Dawkins' concept of a 'meme' was not some sort of genetically inherited personality trait, but the opposite: a mental construct, ideas and/or concepts we had picked up via our interactions with society. Things like changing fashions, childrens' playground crazes etc. He even gave religion as an example of a (in his opinion, harmful) meme which was good at persisting and replicating (perhaps without any direct benefit to the host!)
Although some aspects of population genetics might be applicable to the meme concept (they can mutate, for example: people can add to an idea, or recall gossip imperfectly when passing it on), Dawkins' point was actually that human society and culture could not be explained completely by genetics - through language and more recently written records, humans have other ways of passing behaviour on to later generations. Which just goes to show, even the Ultimate Materialistic Bogeyman realises the limits of reductionism...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by GDR, posted 07-04-2005 2:33 AM GDR has replied

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 30 (221675)
07-04-2005 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by gengar
07-04-2005 12:15 PM


Re: Memes
The problem with memes is that, although it is an interesting idea that may have some validity, there is no well-developed "Theory of Memes" that can be tested, and so no data that supports it.

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Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 13 of 30 (221687)
07-04-2005 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by GDR
07-01-2005 11:44 PM


Human Personality Genes are Too Elusive (at present)
Genes seem to pre-house personality somewhat (as you agree), but more especially in animals (dogs come to mind). But, I don’t concur that genes pre-house human personality, at least beyond the limbic or visceral states (of mind). Also, uniformatarian and/or catastrophical metaphysical-environmental events are apt to play upon persons.
I’m an identical twin (for real). Our personalities are quite different.
I have a B.S in psychology, my twin a B.S in Civil Engineering.
I only drink Nyquil for colds. He’s an ‘AA’ alcoholic.
I’m a fundy-YEC. He’s a Zon-Atheist
I’m homophobic. He is indifferent and has a close homosexual friend.
I’m a podiatrist and portrait artist (like the picture to your left); he drafts survey plans.
I am left-footed and was left-handed he is right-footed and right-handed.
Etc.
We seemed to begin life similarly and then grow up differently.
We HAD the same genes at conception (probably) and many similar genes at birth. Environment, DNA-protein factors, and unknown mechanisms of our identical genomes have somehow drastically changed the genes (let alone our personalities).
Thus many would not believe we have the same personality genes.
Anyway, hope this helps.
Philip

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 Message 1 by GDR, posted 07-01-2005 11:44 PM GDR has replied

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 14 of 30 (221689)
07-04-2005 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by gengar
07-04-2005 12:15 PM


Re: Memes
gengar writes:
It's been some time since I read the 'Selfish Gene' but as I recall Dawkins' concept of a 'meme' was not some sort of genetically inherited personality trait, but the opposite: a mental construct, ideas and/or concepts we had picked up via our interactions with society. Things like changing fashions, childrens' playground crazes etc. He even gave religion as an example of a (in his opinion, harmful) meme which was good at persisting and replicating (perhaps without any direct benefit to the host!)
Dawkins - The Selfish Gene writes:
Just as genes propagate themselves in the gene pool by leaping from body to body via sperm or eggs, so memes propagate themselves in the meme pool by leaping from brain to brain by a process which in the broad sense of the term , can be called imitation
Dawkins even coined the term "memetic" to sound like "genetic" to emphasize the concept that a meme was a unit of replication as well.
gengar writes:
Dawkins' point was actually that human society and culture could not be explained completely by genetics - through language and more recently written records, humans have other ways of passing behaviour on to later generations. Which just goes to show, even the Ultimate Materialistic Bogeyman realises the limits of reductionism...
My point is that I agree with Dawkins. There is something being passed on. He applies it more specifically to culture but I would contend that personality is a large part of that.
The question again is how are these traits being passed on? Dawkins believes it's by natural selection whereas I believe that it is something outside of the physical.
This message has been edited by GDR, 07-04-2005 11:12 AM

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 15 of 30 (221698)
07-04-2005 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Philip
07-04-2005 2:01 PM


Re: Human Personality Genes are Too Elusive (at present)
Philip writes:
I’m an identical twin (for real). Our personalities are quite different.
Actually Philip that is really instructive. To me it suggests that any personality traits that we inherit are not as a result of physical genes. As you are identical twins you have the same physical characteristics as they were passed down from the genes of your parents and grand-parents etc.
If however personality traits are being passed down by other than physical means then it would just as reasonable to expect identical twins to have different personalities to the same degree that any other set of siblings would have.
In your case it would sound like you inherited personality traits from one side of the family and your twin from the other. This would be consistent with the idea that our personality is part of the spiritual side of our being and that it is passed down by spiritual means.

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