Miracle

I agree, in principle; but I think there is scope to explore the question.We could detect a propensity of prayer to have an influence, by such things as a double blind test praying for healing for a selected group of patients. Such tests have been done, and have failed to detect an effect. One widely cited study at Columbia Medical University Study claimed to find a clear effect. It was reported in a peer reviewed journal, and there was a supporting press statement from Columbia University describing the safeguards against a hoax.And yet, a hoax it apparently was. The study protocols were confused and inadequate, the authorship dubious with the one most credible author not actually involved in writing, and with another author since revealed as a serial hoaxer and convicted of felonies including conspiracy to commit mail fraud and conspiracy to commit bank fraud. Details in The Columbia University 'Miracle' Study: Flawed and Fraud at csicop, IVF-prayer study raises doubts at biomedcentral.com, and Exposed: conman's role in prayer-power IVF 'miracle' at The Observer May 30 2004. Juicy reading.If such a study was confirmed, however, and able to be repeated, then it would seriously impact the notions we (you and I) have of how natural law works. It is hard to see how a new expression of a natural law could accomodate it. I suggest it would indicate that the metaphor of "law" would no longer be a particularly good one for our descriptions of the how the universe works.Effectively, the notion of "natural law" is itself a kind of analogy which seems to work well as an indication of the principles on which the universe works. We can imagine alternative worlds in which the notion of "law" is not so useful, or at least incomplete.Cheers -- Sylas

Oops, hadn't noticed this reply. Actually, I was describing a sleeping disorder called sleep paralysis. In my own country (Vietnam), we call it Ma De, roughly translated as ghost sitting on you.When you go to sleep, a part of your brain goes dormant to prevent you from acting out what dream. In other words, you literally become paralized temporarily. Sometimes, some people become conscious while their bodies are still paralized. Although chances are that the experience only takes a few minutes, the state of the mind at the time would make it seem a lot longer than that. Because the mind is fragile during sleep paralysis, hallucinations often result. Combine the hallucinations with paralysis, which causes people to feel like their chests are being pressed down by something, a dark human-like figure often result.In old day Europe, the phenomenon undoubtedly contributed to the various witch huntings. People at the time interpreted the experience as supernatural. In Asia, people are more worried about ghosts. Hence, instead of witches sitting on your chest you now have ghosts sitting on your chest.In fact, the disorder has been found to cause alien abduction experiences. Now that we live in a modern age, the dark figure turned from a witch to an alien.The point is just because you can't explain an experience or phenomenon doesn't mean you have to label it supernatural. I'm sure the witches and cats that were burned by the inquisition would agree with me.Coincidently, I tried to explain the disorder to some people I know in Vietnam and none of them believed me. Supernatural explanations seem to be more popular among the ignorants.By the way, I have the disorder. It is now more of an annoyance than a scary experience. My initial response used to be "Somebody help me!!! Ahhhh!! A ghost!!" Nowadays, my response would be something like "Goddamn it, not again. Let see how long this is going to take."

---

People, please look at the Style Guide for EvC thread by Sylas. Pay particular attention to step 3.SURGEON GENERAL'S WARNING: Refusal to use the search engine may cause brain cancer.

quote:

---

I am not asking for opinions on whether miracles actually exist but to hear how you would respond to seeing a miracle and why.

---

I would assume it was a trick. Having studied a (very) little stage magic, I consider it not THAT hard to set up such an illusion. One of the most common stage magic devices of course is a stooge (yes that is the technical term) in the audience who is used to validate the perceived effect, for example.

quote:

---

I think your making a huge mistake by assuming that our advanced technology in the future will explain miracles.

---

Clarke's Third Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

I think medicine is under a larger delusion than this, that it can cure disease without a new synthetic a priori thought!Publications | Human Nature

quote:

---

XI. FINAL BREAKING AWAY OF THE THEOLOGICAL THEORY IN MEDICINE.

​

While this development of history was going on, the central idea on which the whole theologic view restedthe idea of diseases as resulting from the wrath of God or malice of Satanwas steadily weakened; and, out of the many things which show this, one may be selected as indicating the drift of thought among theologians themselves.

---

I think the root cause of this larger delusion was the appearence of this weaking supported by institutions such as Cornell, which I question. Medicine now thinks it is god!! and yet we dont use axiomatic deduction to abdut the disease we think the information from the analogy to language in RNA was all that is needed. Suffering has a language all to itself.White misapplied the relation of a good will and a free will in his discussion of MIRACLES- I still see less law than more miracles. It would seem like a miracle to me if I saw law given that I havent seen it as far as I remember but once in Rhode Island.

From the description, I thought you were talking hypnopompic or hypnagogic hallucination (the one when awaking, the other occurring while falling asleep). These have been implicated in a lot of the alien abduction stuff.

this has been stated, but he was refering to sleep paralysis. it's a strange hybrid of waking and sleeping states. the hormone that keeps the body still during rem sleep (preventing movement acted in dreams, apparently) is on, while the concious mind is awake. the result is usually one of the most terrifying trips anyone will ever experience.i have a friend that suffered from these for a while. i myself had one last week.the "sitting on the chest" phenomenon is part of the paralyzed state. people often feel weight on their chest, like they can't breathe, or can't move. some people report the opposite, however, like they are being lifted off the bed. the figures are always "fuzzy." as in out of focus. sometimes waxy, almost. it's part of the concious mind not being able to fully resolve the dream state, or something. if you've ever seen "eternal sunshine of the spotless mind" they tend to look like the people in previously-erased bits. creepy. as. hell.sometimes the figures are perceived by the dreamer as demonic, sometimes alien. this is definitally the origin of the incubus and succubus legends, and probably most alien abduction accounts. experiences are sometimes sexual. they are also always terrifying. something about the state seems to trigger some kind of chemical reaction in the brain that produces irrational fear. the fight or flight response, only you can't do either. these experiences are especially REAL as well, for two reasons. 1: it's rather tricky to know you're dreaming during the dream. 2: they happen where you feel asleep, and you are aware of your surroundings.they tend to happen or happen more frequently when sleeping patterns are out of whack. falling asleep at weird times, in strange settings, or in the wrong clothing even.when i had one last week, my first time really, i was able to subconciously recognize what was happening, and ignore the terrifying figure. i even made him go away, by concentrating on the cd player i had willed to play. i guess to distract me. then i gradually regained conciousness, and spent a good minute and half trying to figure out what happened to the next song on the cd, and how i'd been listening to it all considering it was in the car.however, i do not suspect a person prior to the late 20th century would have been able to identify what was going on. they would not read it as a brain chemistry thing, but a religious matter such as the incubi and succubi accounts.

Obviously, I would look for a scam first, as that is the most plausible explanation.Failing this, and if I were convinced the event occurred, then we would have a new phenomenon for science to examine. Assuming its appropriately recorded, of course.