Big Bang - Big Dud

Trying to convince an evolutionist of God's creation is like trying to convince a blind man that your shirt is red. You know its red but there's nothing you can say to the blind man that will make him take your word for it.Energy can't be created (by natural laws) or destroyed. it's as simple as that. If the example of virtual particles is true then we can just throw out the first law of thermodynamics, right? And there continues the mad circle of theories replaced by new ones to reaffirm an ever present lie. The Big Bang is a joke.

We're not like you, Bear. Unlike you we don't let dogma determine what we will or will not believe.If you have evidence of God's creative act that can withstand scrutiny, then I will believe. I promise you that. Will you make the same promise? If we can show you evidence of evolution that can withstand the best attempts of creationists to knock it down, will you accept evolution? I doubt it, but maybe you'll surprise me. In a classical universe, you would be right. We don't live in that universe. We live in a quantum universe where, in fact, you can create energy from nothing, provided that you create opposing energy at the same time, so that the net energy gain is zero. Funny that the only one who seems to believe that vacumn tension energy violates thermodynamics is you. Why do you suppose that is?

The gain is zero. nothing has been gained. I have no idea but if the only energy that doesn't contradict the first law of thermodynamics is what you speak of then how did the Big Bang happen, was IT in a vacuum?

What little I've read about this says that at the quantum scale the law of conservation of energy can be violated, but only for very short periods of time.--Percy

The Big Bang did not "happen in a vacuum".^* We don't know how the Big Bang happened; but we have a solid empirical basis for confidence that it did happen.Cheers -- Sylas

Actually, I don' know what virtual particles and thermodynamics mean taken together? Can Eta or Sylas help here? I have some guesses but they are so flaky that I won't even try.

Yes, exactly. Now tell me - what's the total energy state of the entire universe?

PercyThe Heisenberg uncertainty principle applies to energy and time as well as position and momentum,and as you corrctly reccall the conservation of energy can be violated as long as the time is short enough. The formula for this {delta}E times {delta}t > h-bar/2. h-bar is planck's constant h {6.6262 x 10^-34 joule seconds} divided by 2PiThe product of energy and time must be of greater value than this number.You can see that either the values of the individual energy and time must become exceeding weak for energy if the time is large or the time extremely brief if the energy is substantial.This message has been edited by sidelined, 10 February 2005 06:17 AM

You statement that Energy can not be created or destroyed "it's as simple as that." is simplistic. You are applying laws that man has created to help explain what he sees in the universe. Other posters have told you that energy is created a;; the time from the very fabric of the universe. Yes it 'disappears' very quickly so the net effect is zero, but if it interacts with mass that is very near it, it has a measurable effect. And even if it disappears, it was still created from nothing.
All of this beside the point, we can only guess what caused the big bang b/c out physics break down at that point. It doesn't mean our physics are a joke, or the big bang is a joke, it just means our theories are incomplete. Come on, we just discovered a few years ago that the universe's expansion is accelerating. We are still taking small steps, we're not running yet.I've read that the big bang could have been a white hole (which means matter was increasing in this universe (inflation)), maybe it was created in a lab in another universe, who knows. And we don't make new laws to just keep reaffirming the big bang. We make laws to understand what we observe. We observe an expanding universe so we try to understand it. It's not to disprove god or creation. Let's be adult about this.

jsmall I will give you the chance to reply to the person you meant to since I am not the one you mean to deal with.

Were glad you're here. There are two ways to reply, the small red button beneath each message will link your reply to the message and notify the other poster.The larger reply button is a general reply.See the links at the at the bottom of this message for some other tips.

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I'm not sure if all of you are still on topic or not. But I have a question for theEvolutionists out there about the BIG Bang.What exploded when everything blow up? You have to start with something. If you did start with matter, who made that matter?ANDThere is no friction in outer space so why isn't it still blowing up?

I think you still are having troubles with the mechanics. Generally we do not participate in the discussion while in Admin mode. Let me go over the buttons one more time for you. The rightmost reply button that appears under each message let's you reply to a specific post. On the left is a general reply button to be used when you are making a general post instead of a one specific to an earlier response.I hope someone will respond to your question or that I get a chance to respond when not in Admin mode.

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The Big Bang was not an explosion. The term "Big Bang" does suggest an explosion, and that's unfortunate, but the event was not an explosion.(Historical note; the term "Big Bang" was originated by Sir Fred Hoyle, who had a competing theory and thought the Big Bang theory was silly. The term "Big Bang" was supposed to suggest how silly he thought it was. The term, however, stuck ... and we're stuck with it.) Unjustified assumption, based on our everyday experience and common sense .. which we know often leads us astray when considering things so far outside of our everyday experience.Nobody knows. There is at least one possibility that is perfectly consistent with all the laws of physics that we know, and in which it literally didn't start with something; it could have started with nothing and been generated by a quantum fluctuation. Well, it was never blowing up, but the Big Bang is still going on. The expansion of the Universe that started with the Big Bang continues today and it's almost certain that it's accelerating.You might want to look at Message 1.

...It could have started with nothing...!Nothing turned into dead matter and that dead matter turned into living matter. Then the living matter grow and grow, found something to marry,(that's a pretty good trick) reproduced itself and gradualy became all the life forms we see today. Is that what happened?I would like to here how you personally think we got here. Through the Big Bang or whatever.