When is a belief system a Mental Disorder?

Perhaps Orwell was wrong, and sanity is statistical. Maybe talking to invisible beings is fine when done in a manner consistent with one's culture.

Most cases of insanity have nothing to do with religion or belief in another dimension. I don't have a criterion to offer at the moment about how to break it down, but splitting the pie this way doesn't strike me as the way to go about it. Belief in another dimension, even hearing voices, can describe people both sane and insane.This message has been edited by Faith, 02-15-2006 09:09 AM

Now this may be exactly the right idea: I read once that among some Siberian peoples, a man that a Western psychiatrist would call a schizophrenic is instead called a shaman, and the voices in his head are viewed as spirit voices. Hell, Joan of Arc was likely just the same.

The topic is too disorganized it seems to me to admit of a coherent discussion. But I'll throw out some statements I think might apply.There is an invisible world of living beings. Believing in this is not in itself crazy. Every culture on earth has acknowledged such beings. Jesus had to deal with demons who had possessed people.Hearing voices may have many sources, including one's own mind, but there are real living beings who are capable of speaking to a person's mind in this way, so I wouldn't jump to conclusions about the person's mental state from this mere fact.These beings are considered by Christians to be malevolent, to be distrusted or ignored. They are the same beings who have pretended to be "gods" for various religions throughout the history of the world.I've believed since I became a Christian that they are probably the cause of the voices that the insane DO hear. Common ideas they may impart feed the person's sense of importance or they lead the person to self-destructive acts, or as in the case of the woman who killed her children, or "Son of Sam," to commit violence against others.The most standard Christian position is that we are not to heed ANYTHING but the word of God. God does "speak" to us but not as a voice, more as an impression on the conscience, and the God-taught conscience would condemn any impulse to murder.So although hearing voices isn't exactly a common event, if it should occur, the Christian's decision has to be based on what the Word of God says, not what the voice says. There is plenty of teaching through the millennia on this.So the woman who killed her children, who considered herself a Christian, was wrong by Christian standards. It wasn't God she heard from. I also think she was/is insane, but I don't know the legal criteria for establishing this.This message has been edited by Faith, 02-15-2006 09:34 AM

Yes. Most cultures throughout history have had such beliefs, and shamans or priests who practice healing or magic within the cultural context based on their contact with spirits.

What do you guys think of Joan of Arc? Sane or Insane?I think a lot of good points have been brought up. If I'm a fundamentalist x-tian for example.... it's not insane in the group of people I associate with to believe the earth is 6000 years old. Similarly, if I'm a fundamentalist muslim it may not be insane to belive that if I blow some infidels up I get 72 virgins in the afterlife.The cultural standards brought up here are very interesting.Question: how do we reconcile cultural standards with psychiatric standards?

I disagree, Faith. The two predominant subsets of psychotic mentation concern religion and sexuality--which is only to be expected, given the intensely primary role that both play in human lives.I'll look for some data to support that, but I didn't want the discussion to slip by before I get there. I agree.Poets, for example, often receive their inspiration via what is commonly called "the given line," often heard, with the rest of the poem unfolding in the process of unpacking that line's meaning and emulating its scansion and tone.That is my own experience; my brother, however, is a paranoid schizophrenic, and his voices threaten and condemn.

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I was thinking of the idea that others are plotting against them, or, like the mathematician of the movie "A Beautiful Mind," that they are involved in some extremely important covert operations. These beliefs rarely have anything to do with religion. OK. That's interesting. I wasn't aware of that. I also had a paranoid schizophrenic brother, who died by dousing himself with gasoline and lighting it. We think his voices had told him to do it but we'll never know. There was no religious content in any of his experiences.This message has been edited by Faith, 02-15-2006 09:59 AM

Isn't there a "still, small voice" somewhere in Ezekiel? Didn't Saul/Paul get spoken to at his conversion?

but god has told people to kill in the past and you justify this. in fact, the word of god teaches us to kill many people. what makes him different now?

The still small voice isn't understood to be the kind of voices we are talking about, but something closer to an impression.However, the prophets of the Old Testament routinely heard directly from God, and in no uncertain terms. And Paul certainly heard from God in a very dramatic way.With the closing of the canon, however, most Christians believe all that kind of revelation -- revelation as to the nature of the faith itself -- ended. Believers continue to "hear" from God, however, in many forms, the most common being through the Bible's speaking a particular thought at a particular moment.

God never told an individual to kill anyone. The military operations of Israel are something else altogether.

I don't think anyone is saying that ALL religious people are insane or that ALL insane people are religious. In fact, I personally believe that there are plenty of insane people who have insanity involving religion, but is not caused by religion. The example I gave in the OP of the guy thinking god told him to murder people is a good one. He was probably raised in a christian home and thus incorporated god into his delusions (this is just my personal theory). If he had been raised in a hindu home he might have said that shiva (think that's the right god ) told him to do it. If raised in an Atheist household maybe he would have said Aliens told him to do it.I don't think that belief in the Supernatural is necessarily a sign of insanity. Of course the question I have more in mind is beliefs that directly contradict observed reality. Of course it could just be willful ignorance rather than insanity

Or it could be that if you look closer you'd recognize that it isn't about observed reality at all, but about an interpretation that is imposed upon reality, and that the wilful ignorance is to be found elsewhere.

I think this is the heart of the matter. There is absolutely no reasonable way to interpret the evidence found in reality to show anything other than an old earth. Yet people still believe in things like a young earth despite this view clearly being in direct conflict with observed reality.The question then becomes are beliefs of this nature the sign of a mental disorder or simply that some people are able to completely delude themselves. It's also possible that this is a bad example since many people who beleive in a young earth simply don't have the ability to understand the evidence.I think the young earth might be a bad example, because one needs some scientific training to understand the evidence.I'll try to think of a better example that doesn't require any specialized knowledge (maybe people who don't believe dinosaurs existed?)