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Author
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Topic: Determining genetic influence on sexuality
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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2919 days) Posts: 882 Joined: 06-22-2005
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Message 16 of 42 (236376)
08-24-2005 10:04 AM
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Reply to: Message 11 by Mammuthus
08-24-2005 5:52 AM
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Re: Survey of Animal Homosexuality
As this is the coffehouse, I guess a little speculation is in order. In line with your suggestion that the reproductive imperative is still going to be the driving selective force, it would seem to me that a shift toward bisexuality might occur after one is past the age of reproduction, at least for females. Modern human females live longer than males as well (I don't know if this was true in the evolutionary past with high rates of maternal mortality during childbirth), so the companionship need is going to come into play as well.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 11 by Mammuthus, posted 08-24-2005 5:52 AM | | Mammuthus has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 17 by Mammuthus, posted 08-24-2005 10:20 AM | | deerbreh has replied |
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Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6502 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: 08-09-2002
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Message 17 of 42 (236385)
08-24-2005 10:20 AM
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Reply to: Message 16 by deerbreh
08-24-2005 10:04 AM
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Re: Survey of Animal Homosexuality
I would speculate that the advantages could be one of social cohesion (as in bonobos releasing tension by having sex-both hetero and homosexual). Social cohesion in a clan or troop based society would likely yield a fitness benefit to those in the group. Especially when they face external threats. It also depends on what else homosexual humans or animals do in a group. One hypothesis as to why humans are long lived is that grandparents (well at least grandmothers) in many cultures help take care of grandchildren thus helping to pass on their genes even once past the reproductive age themselves. If homosexuals also play some such similar role in their families or in groups, it could also be selected for. The problem is modern society does not resemble the early society of humans when we were under strong selective pressures so it is hard to extrapolate from today and work backwards..and behavior does not leave nice fossils behind. All this is really hard to measure in long lived species like humans..or any primate for that matter.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 16 by deerbreh, posted 08-24-2005 10:04 AM | | deerbreh has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 20 by deerbreh, posted 08-24-2005 11:55 AM | | Mammuthus has not replied |
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5846 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: 12-11-2002
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Message 18 of 42 (236418)
08-24-2005 11:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 15 by deerbreh
08-24-2005 9:54 AM
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Re: Survey of Animal Homosexuality
if I had to guess I would say it is a bimodal distribution with the peaks close to either end and the "homo" curve somewhat skewed toward the middle. Given that only 10% of the population has been speculated to be gay, my guess is that there wouldn't be two separate "peaks". My thought is that actual sexual preference would end up looking like a bell curve with almost 100% gay at one of the tapered ends, almost 100% straight at another, and the main bulge between the two (slightly shifted toward hetero).
holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by deerbreh, posted 08-24-2005 9:54 AM | | deerbreh has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 19 by deerbreh, posted 08-24-2005 11:49 AM | | Silent H has replied | | | Message 25 by Monk, posted 08-24-2005 3:01 PM | | Silent H has replied |
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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2919 days) Posts: 882 Joined: 06-22-2005
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Message 19 of 42 (236426)
08-24-2005 11:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 18 by Silent H
08-24-2005 11:22 AM
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Re: Survey of Animal Homosexuality
The peak would have to be more than slightly shifted toward hetero, wouldn't it? Only slightly shifted would mean that most people are 60% hetero and 40% homo. Do you really think the "homo" is that high in most people? And are males and females likely to be the same or would the male curve be quite differant from the female curve?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 18 by Silent H, posted 08-24-2005 11:22 AM | | Silent H has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 28 by Silent H, posted 08-24-2005 3:33 PM | | deerbreh has not replied |
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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2919 days) Posts: 882 Joined: 06-22-2005
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Message 20 of 42 (236428)
08-24-2005 11:55 AM
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Reply to: Message 17 by Mammuthus
08-24-2005 10:20 AM
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Re: Survey of Animal Homosexuality
Social cohesion in a clan or troop based society would likely yield a fitness benefit to those in the group. Especially when they face external threats. Well there is a lot of anecdotal data of strong bonds among warrior cohorts. I don't know how often actual sex is involved. According to the military gay sex is a threat to unit cohesion. Are they correct?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 17 by Mammuthus, posted 08-24-2005 10:20 AM | | Mammuthus has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 21 by Theodoric, posted 08-24-2005 12:40 PM | | deerbreh has not replied | | | Message 22 by Tal, posted 08-24-2005 2:34 PM | | deerbreh has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 21 of 42 (236441)
08-24-2005 12:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 20 by deerbreh
08-24-2005 11:55 AM
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Re: Survey of Animal Homosexuality
What about the Sacred Band of Thebes? Sacred Band of Thebes - WikipediaInternet History Sourcebooks Project I guess something can be said to be fighting for the survival of your beloved. Wasn't a threat to unit cohesion for them. But then again ancient Greece was another time another place. Just wanted to throw out the example.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 20 by deerbreh, posted 08-24-2005 11:55 AM | | deerbreh has not replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5704 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 22 of 42 (236482)
08-24-2005 2:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 20 by deerbreh
08-24-2005 11:55 AM
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Re: Survey of Animal Homosexuality
Well there is a lot of anecdotal data of strong bonds among warrior cohorts. I don't know how often actual sex is involved. According to the military gay sex is a threat to unit cohesion. Are they correct?
Yes. It isn't a threat though, it is garanteed to destroy unit cohesion and Esprit De Corps.
Tired of the opposite sex? Want to turn your favorite football player into a raging homsexual? Then purchase your Gay-Gene Cattle Prod! One Zap from the GGCP will turn the Gay Gene off or on at your whim. So if you want your wife to get some hot girl on girl action, the Gay-Gene Cattle Prod is for you! *not intended for use on children*
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 20 by deerbreh, posted 08-24-2005 11:55 AM | | deerbreh has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 23 by ringo, posted 08-24-2005 2:49 PM | | Tal has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 23 of 42 (236488)
08-24-2005 2:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 22 by Tal
08-24-2005 2:34 PM
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Military Homosexuality
Tal writes: ... it is garanteed to destroy unit cohesion and Esprit De Corps. More likely, it's the homophobia that destroys unit cohesion and esprit de corps. How can you expect a guy to "have your back" when you're calling him a "fag" and giving him a blanket-thumping every night?
People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 22 by Tal, posted 08-24-2005 2:34 PM | | Tal has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 24 by Tal, posted 08-24-2005 2:54 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5704 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 24 of 42 (236490)
08-24-2005 2:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 23 by ringo
08-24-2005 2:49 PM
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Re: Military Homosexuality
Whatever. The question was does homosexuality threaten unit cohesion. The answer is yes. Debate the why's the all you want. By the way, that works both ways. Some buddies and myself were jumped by homosexuals who were out "straight bashing" in Syracuse. Don't take the holier than thou attitude towards heterosexuals. Two-way street.
Tired of the opposite sex? Want to turn your favorite football player into a raging homsexual? Then purchase your Gay-Gene Cattle Prod! One Zap from the GGCP will turn the Gay Gene off or on at your whim. So if you want your wife to get some hot girl on girl action, the Gay-Gene Cattle Prod is for you! *not intended for use on children*
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 23 by ringo, posted 08-24-2005 2:49 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 26 by ringo, posted 08-24-2005 3:03 PM | | Tal has replied |
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Monk
Member (Idle past 3951 days) Posts: 782 From: Kansas, USA Joined: 02-25-2005
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Message 25 of 42 (236493)
08-24-2005 3:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 18 by Silent H
08-24-2005 11:22 AM
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Re: Survey of Animal Homosexuality
Given that only 10% of the population has been speculated to be gay, my guess is that there wouldn't be two separate "peaks". I've seen that 10% number bandied about quite a bit by the gay community, but isn't it closer to 2%-4%. The 10% number was from a study done 40+ years ago?. I'm not debating, just curious.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 18 by Silent H, posted 08-24-2005 11:22 AM | | Silent H has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 29 by Silent H, posted 08-24-2005 3:37 PM | | Monk has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 26 of 42 (236494)
08-24-2005 3:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 24 by Tal
08-24-2005 2:54 PM
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Re: Military Homosexuality
Tal writes: The question was does homosexuality threaten unit cohesion. The answer is yes. If the question was, "Do black soldiers threaten unit cohesion?", the answer would also be "yes", according to your logic. The problem is caused by intolerance, not by the victims of intolerance.
Some buddies and myself were jumped by homosexuals who were out "straight bashing" in Syracuse. Hope they didn't hurt you too bad. 
People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 24 by Tal, posted 08-24-2005 2:54 PM | | Tal has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 27 by Tal, posted 08-24-2005 3:14 PM | | ringo has not replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5704 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 27 of 42 (236499)
08-24-2005 3:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 26 by ringo
08-24-2005 3:03 PM
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Re: Military Homosexuality
Re: Military HomosexualityIf the question was, "Do black soldiers threaten unit cohesion?", the answer would also be "yes", according to your logic. The problem is caused by intolerance, not by the victims of intolerance. The answer is no. This argument doesn't work and thankfully the military is shielded from this policitically correct BS. Allow me quote Congress.
There is no constitutional right to serve in the armed forces. Military life is fundamentally different from civilian life in that the extraordinary responsibilities of the armed forces, the unique conditions of military service, and the critical role of unit cohesion, require that the military community, while subject to civilian control, exist as a specialized society; and the military society is characterized by its own laws, rules, customs, and traditions, including numerous restrictionson personal behavior, that would not be acceptable in civilian society. The prohibition against homosexual conduct is a longstanding element of military law that continues to be necessary in the unique circumstances of military service. The armed forces must maintain personnel policies that exclude persons whose presence in the armed forces would create
an unacceptable risk to the armed forces' high standards of
morale, good order and discipline, and unit cohesion that are the
essence of military capability. The presence in the armed forces of persons who demonstrate a propensity or intent to engage in homosexual acts would create an unacceptable risk to the high standards of morale, good order and discipline, and unit cohesion that are the essence of military capability. This message has been edited by Tal, 08-24-2005 03:19 PM
Tired of the opposite sex? Want to turn your favorite football player into a raging homsexual? Then purchase your Gay-Gene Cattle Prod! One Zap from the GGCP will turn the Gay Gene off or on at your whim. So if you want your wife to get some hot girl on girl action, the Gay-Gene Cattle Prod is for you! *not intended for use on children*
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 26 by ringo, posted 08-24-2005 3:03 PM | | ringo has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 31 by Silent H, posted 08-24-2005 3:42 PM | | Tal has replied |
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5846 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: 12-11-2002
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Message 28 of 42 (236503)
08-24-2005 3:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 19 by deerbreh
08-24-2005 11:49 AM
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Re: Survey of Animal Homosexuality
Only slightly shifted would mean that most people are 60% hetero and 40% homo. Do you really think the "homo" is that high in most people? And are males and females likely to be the same or would the male curve be quite differant from the female curve? I really am just guessing. Personally I'd guess the average person would be 70/30 hetero. But of course that also changes for any person over time and place. Females probably have a different curve, with a hump slightly more toward the center. Let me repeat, I am totally making this up without a solid scientific rationale.
holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 19 by deerbreh, posted 08-24-2005 11:49 AM | | deerbreh has not replied |
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5846 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: 12-11-2002
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Message 29 of 42 (236504)
08-24-2005 3:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 25 by Monk
08-24-2005 3:01 PM
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Re: Survey of Animal Homosexuality
I've seen that 10% number bandied about quite a bit by the gay community, but isn't it closer to 2%-4%. I said speculated. I have no confidence in any of the numbers given. I'd say 10% seems quite small compared to the numbers I have seen, but that could be where I have lived and end up being only 1% worldwide... who knows? Certainly it does differ based on the community.
holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by Monk, posted 08-24-2005 3:01 PM | | Monk has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 30 by Tal, posted 08-24-2005 3:38 PM | | Silent H has not replied | | | Message 33 by Scaryfish, posted 08-24-2005 4:15 PM | | Silent H has not replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5704 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 30 of 42 (236505)
08-24-2005 3:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 29 by Silent H
08-24-2005 3:37 PM
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Re: Survey of Animal Homosexuality
Certainly it does differ based on the community. 
Tired of the opposite sex? Want to turn your favorite football player into a raging homsexual? Then purchase your Gay-Gene Cattle Prod! One Zap from the GGCP will turn the Gay Gene off or on at your whim. So if you want your wife to get some hot girl on girl action, the Gay-Gene Cattle Prod is for you! *not intended for use on children*
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 29 by Silent H, posted 08-24-2005 3:37 PM | | Silent H has not replied |
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