The location of the Tree of Life

But he was told it was wrong, so he knew, unless he forgot. I could accept that. [qs] and these are different how?the closest in the torah to a spirit, or soul, is the breath of god in life. all life is described as breath. that breath is not of us, but of god. it's not -our- soul.
[/s]Then why are there so many references to soul, and spirit. But when it says to love God, it says to do so with all your heart, mind and soul. All OT references. It is by God's spirit in us, that we are alive. The bible questions if animals go to heaven, but I do not think it gives an answer. I wonder myself.Yes we are all born with the breath of life (God's spirit). That is how we are alive. We also have a soul. But God's spirit can only be activated in us by seeking him, and following him. It's there, but not yet alive in us. People had to do many things to know God's spirit in the OT.

We (by we I refer to our conscious egos or sense of being a separate entity) are an illusion so we don't make decisions it only feels to us like we do. I don't know what you mean by power. That sounds like an extraneous term. It is sufficient to ask if we "make our decisions" or "choose our choices".The question is how decisions are made. What thought is thought? What feeling is felt? What is said and done? How does the complex neural net of the brain function?lfen

Hey, matrix reloaded, yes or no?

I've never seen the matrix. When I visit my brother's family I end up seeing some movies cause they have a tv and either watch them or rent some or they own some. That's how I saw The Clone Wars, which I thought was very disappointing. Glad I didn't pay money to watch it. It's been several years since I've been in a theatre.The little bit I picked up here about the matrix doesn't sound like what I'm talking about it at all really. So I'll say no.lfen

RR,I don't know how to make a link but you can check this message for a fuller explanation of the nondual viewpoint I'm talking about.EvC Forum ⇒ All Forums ⇒ Social and Religious Issues ⇒ Faith and Belief ⇒ What is GOD? Msg 52lfen

That's my point exactly. I can't explain it because I don't understand it. (Is that yet another thing that you think you understand, but don't? ) And yet Jesus said that we must be like an eight-year-old in order to enter heaven. I suggest that an eight-year-old is capable of a clearer understanding than you have. They aren't weighed down by all your dogmatic fundy baggage. If you can't explain something, just say so. Don't claim that the Bible has a clear explanation and then expect us to take 38 years to figure it out for ourselves. "Just getting it" doesn't contribute much to this forum. Neither do snide remarks about others being "deceived by the devil" if they "get" something different.This is a discussion forum. We can only discuss our views if we can explain them. The first thing to learn, Grasshopper, is that we can learn from anybody. If you're unwilling to learn, you won't learn. Learning what God "is" is no excuse for making up your own version of the Bible. What the Bible "is" is still what it is, even if you didn't understand it then or if you don't understand it now. Never pretend that your "understanding" of God can change what the Bible is. I said that you should try using only the Torah as an exercise. If you can't understand the Torah using the Torah, what makes you think you can understand it using outside references?I suggest that you still don't understand the Torah. You only understand what outside references say about it.And Jesus didn't come so that you could "get" the Torah. Again I repeat, He said that you must be like a little child - not a rabbi - to enter the kingdom of heaven. I use the word "spirit" in the sense of "a spirited horse" or children who are "full of high spirits". That seems to tally with the dictionary definition that you gave.I've been trying to get you to tell us what you mean by "spirit", without much success. Is it something that we just have to "get", or can you actually explain it? For the benefit of our fans, why don't you explain it?

---

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

I might be wrong but I tend to view the soul as our essence, which is linked toward our past.I also tend to view our spirit as being our inspiration, which is linked toward our future.In a sense, I think our soul and spirit are but two facets of the same thing, our very presence of life. It is focussed in the present because this is where we make our choices.When I read the passage that says, In the sense that the Spirit judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart, I beleive the illumination of the Holy Spirit penetrate the darkness of our souls so as to bring about a greater good from the things we've done wrong in the past.Now I'm not sure about others, however, I tend to think that "spiritual death" means one is born without a direct and personal relationship with Christ -- the very same condition that Adam and Eve were left in after their expulsion form the Garden.A natural knowledge of God is still present in nature to those who are receptive enough to hear it, and the laws are still written onto the hearts of all people, and the Holy Spirit can still move them according to God's will -- but most people are not able to "know God" directly from birth.I think all people would have known God intimately from birth if Adam and Eve had not fallen in the garden -- known God intimately in a very direct and personal way like Christ himself has with his father. I think glimpses of this "intimate knowledge from birth" are seen when John the Baptist jumps in the womb of his mother Elizabeth at the presence of the Christ in Mary's womb. I think there are some other possible examples of people knowing God from conception in the Scriptures too.This doesn't mean that I think that little children are born to go to hell just because they may not intimately know Christ from birth (and I've explained why I believe this in various threads here at EvC particularly the various "Is God determined to allow evidence, etc." thread). I believe that God's loving grace is sufficient to merit them a place in heaven despite their lack of intimate knowledge of God. Even more so, I think that the trusting nature of Children stiil captures the trust necessary to believe God's word, even though they might not directly know Christ.As they grow into adulthood, however, I think this lack of intimate knowledge (and an increased inability to trust) does tend to increase and lead to a wittling away of their innocence -- which, if the situation goes unchecked, can potentially lead toward an eternal sepatation from God upon physical death.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-20-2005 04:13 PM

I'm going to wait for riVeRraT's answer before I pontificate, but I don't disagree much with what you say in Message 217.The main point of departure would be: I believe that children definitely are born with a spirit, which has little to do with an "intimate knowledge of Christ". What cripples that inborn spirit is "thinking we know things".Jesus said we must get back to the state we were in as children, before we "knew what we thought we knew".

---

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

I appreciate your dilemma here: the fundy-irony and difficulty of becoming as a little child and the fundy’s apparent claim that a child has no Holy Spirit (or something like that).An innocent child probably doesn’t know that it is born-to-be-damned and wouldn’t seem accountable under Moses Law(s). The law of Moses (or law(s) of God) must drive the child to realize he is entirely a damned soul/spirit in need of redemption by Christ’s Spirit of Life cutting asunder and then (hopefully) replacing his own corrupt spirit.Honest adults (if there be such a thing), especially males, know full well you and I rate eternal damnation, even from birth. Or, to say it nicely, we don’t inherently rate the glory of God in Heaven which seems the same thing to me as rating hellfireBut I suspect the Spirit of Innocence shining in a child is a different level (or aspect) of the Holy Spirit you or I may have been given (i.e., by Christ during a Salvation event in the soul).Of course, I'm speculating greatly here and probably could use a lot more faith at this point.

I'm not so sure we actually disagree on this matter. For example, I do beleive that children definitely are born with a spirit. That part is not dead by any means. However, I would add that I believe that their living spirit is sustained by Christ's graceful knowledge of them. Perhaps a radically different definition of being "born from above" may also be permissible as well. The word community can be used to describe all the people living in a particular district, city, etc. Or it can be used to describe groups of people who have joined together in order to promote a commonality.Under ideal situations, community implies a closeness and a bond of trust between its members. However, this is not always the case, especially when one considers the nature of communism.Within my own Catholic faith, however, community does imply a closeness which transcends the best expectations of any public or society. Yet while it is true to say that my Catholic community is the true and open fellowship of believers, this is not the only thing we are. Although we are a community of believers, the beautific vision of our filial relationship with the Son reveals how much more of a family we actually are. And this sense of family allows the progency of the Holy Spirit to fully engendre us into the fullness of God’s family.The family supercedes the community even under normal grounds. It is even more so when comparing the family to the church. Through my Catholic faith I live in communion with my Lord. By virtue of my baptism I am born from above.As Christ Himself had said to Nicodemus in the Gospel according to St. John, The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.The transcendant community is, therefore, a divine family. And it is, in my opinion, this divine family in which we find we are co-heirs by the virtue of our divine Lord (this implies that Christ is living within us and literally becomes our sacraments).As co-heirs in Christ we become brothers and sisters in Christ, and this co-heirship obliterates any nuance of prejudice based on color, race or social status.Again, speaking from the perspective of my own Catholic faith, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (Article 2207), the family is the original cell of social life. It is the natural society in which husband and wife are called to give themselves in love. It is also the natural society in which husband and wife are called to give themselves the gift of life.Authority, stability, and a life of relationships within the family constitute the foundations for freedom. These articles within the family also constitute the foundations for security and fraternity within society. From my own perspective, ultimately, as the catechism says, the family is the community in which, from childhood, one can learn moral values. Family is also the community where we begin to honor God and make good use of the precious freedom we have been gifted with.If family life is the initiation into life in society, then my Catholic faith is the initiation into eternal life with the Father. This is therefore very important for all people to know. In one way of another, we are all God’s children -- and this is true whether one believes in God or not, and I think this is the true filial meaning of being "born again" that is often rediscovered in Christ.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-20-2005 09:10 PM

Then you are not in control, or any reality thereof, to bad, you would be awesome at it.

You seemed to have missed the point....again. Not surprised really.
You might understand it, and maybe even the eight year old would, if given enough time to explain it. But how do you explain it to an eight year old? It is possible that you might not be able to.Just like people couldn't explain the Holy SPirit to me, or I couldn't get it, until it happened.I was mearly pointing out what your teacher told you was a bunch of BS. I already explained what Jesus meant when he said you must be like a child to enter the gates of heaven.You are partially right about fundie baggage, yes you should not have it, no I don't.I will tell you again, and for the third time in this thread, it is only my job to Love God, and love others, thats it. Thats how I expect to get into heaven. That and helping orphans and widows.Not by what I think Genesis means.In our efforts to become non-traditional, non fundie dogmatic, we create our own traditions and dogma, you have created your own in the way you think, as have I. When can only get there by love.If taking the bible literally, is you way to loving others, and loving God, then it provides the path that you need to travel. This does not make you right, and me wrong. Thats the beauty of the bible. I have explained it, you just.....don't get it. This is your opinion, not fact, I have explained it, you not getting it does not make it untrue. Why is it you pick and choose the words to respond to out of my sentences. Is this a shortcoming of you, is that why you miss morals of storys, just asking.
I said "yet"
What does that mean to you? But thats just ot right there. All the books of the bible were written by the spirit of God. Then they were assembled by the spirit of God. Accepting the books, and not the concept of it being one book as well, is a mistake. Being blessed with the Holy Spirit, being baptised by the Holy Spirit, and being born again, has helped me to understand it now. It is one of the gifts of the spirit, you do know the gifts don't you? You are right, but as I study it and ask God for wisdom, I understand it just find. It can take a lifetime to understand it, I am far from it.By the same token, saying that God is a liar, and the devil tells the truth, then one could say you do not understand the Torah either.I never once claimed to be an expert on the bible. I only claim that I have an active relationship with God, and the Holy Spirit. But it was by the bible, and the love of others, that I got to that point. Keep that thought to yourself. Understanding the Hoyl SPirit, and God, absolutly gives you a better understanding of the bible, it was by the same spirit that it was written. Now we are finally getting somewhere.
Spirited horse is using the word spirit as a metaphore. Not an acurate definition of spirit.I have explained clearly what I mean by spirit, as does the bible.
I have to explain this to you again?
I gave the dictionary definition to show how confused the world is by the meaning of the word. Then I gave a biblical definition, which I already said that I agree with.
Way way back in message 178, I posted what I thought spirit was, here I'll do it again.This is one bible definition of spirit, since it is the bible:quote:
Spirit - (Heb. ruah; Gr. pneuma), properly wind or breath. In 2 Thess. 2:8 it means "breath," and in Eccl. 8:8 the vital principle in man. It also denotes the rational, immortal soul by which man is distinguished (Acts 7:59; 1 Cor. 5:5; 6:20; 7:34), and the soul in its separate state (Heb. 12:23), and hence also an apparition (Job 4:15; Luke 24:37, 39), an angel (Heb. 1:14), and a demon (Luke 4:36; 10:20). This word is used also metaphorically as denoting a tendency (Zech. 12:10; Luke 13:11).Overall your tone in your last reply is somewhat of a direct evidence of the sin we are born into.Even though we are born into sin, this does not dam us to hell you know. Children get to goto heaven.
This is why I say we are judged by God based on what we know. This is also why it is immpossible for me to accurately judge you, because I do not know what you know. I instead try to see you as God sees you, and forgive you, and reconize the good things about you.
This is difficult at best.

I have to apologoze, but it seems we are getting off topic, but it is in an effort to answer your question. I think I have somewhat of an answer, lets see if we can go from here. That and this: Whether the tree of life is a metaphore, or it really did exist, I feel the short answer to your question, and keeping in line with both the metaphorical meaning, and literal meaning of the story is that:A: God does what he wants.
B: He does it, because he knows what is best for us
C: A flaming sword is what Adam needed, not what God needed to keep him away.
D: To not destroy it is a sign, that eternal life is still attainable, but only through God's ways, not ours.How's that?

You keep asserting that you have a special "understanding", but then you get all defensive when I ask for an answer to my questions. Your attitude displays neither an understanding of the Bible nor a good Christian witness. First, since you seem to be quoting somebody, it would be proper to attribute the quote.Second, for the sake of our friends who do not have Bibles handy, it would be better to quote the verses themselves rather than just give the references.Third, I asked you to explain "spirit" in your own words, not by saying you agree with somebody else.Fourth, that collection of verses is far from a "definition", as you claim. It contains a wide variety of uses of the word "spirit', but nothing that could be called a definition.Fifth, children have "breath", children have the "vital principle", children have a "soul". Nothing in your collection of verses suggests what you claim it does.I have asked you again and again, how do you justify your idea that children have no spirit?

---

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Well put.I too believe children go to heaven:
Luke 18:16
But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.