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Author Topic:   No Gospel without Law, no Mercy without Wrath
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1 of 301 (237573)
08-26-2005 9:51 PM


For Faith and Belief I suppose.
On the thread, The Politics of Assassination, addressing the morality of the very idea of assassination as well as the rightness or wrongness of Pat Robertson's statement of his opinion in a particular case, we kept veering off into questions about the meaning of God's commandments. Nuggin has proposed a thread on the Death Penalty off that thread for instance.
I would like to propose a more general discussion of the perennial theme of the seeming conflict between God's wrathful judgments in all their forms as shown in the Bible, and the mercies that are offered by Jesus Christ. Many claim to be Christians who nevertheless reject God's punishments and in fact denounce the very idea in tones of righteous indignation, either denouncing God Himself for them or denouncing those who believe that He did such things while they claim He couldn't have.
The thesis of this thread is that there is no conflict at all, that in fact you cannot have the God of the New Testament without the God of the Old, cannot have mercy without wrath, salvation without condemnation, gospel without law.
I begin with my answer to a post by Prophex on this theme, in which he struggles with embracing both sides of the conflict but is unable to do it:
Prophex on the conflict between God's wrath and Jesus' mercy
It seems that because of these qualities of God, things written that seem so disgraceful and malignant to humanity, must have been acceptable, normal, right, reasonable to God. This makes a relationship with my creator very difficult, almost impossible. How can I relate to a being that seems unfeeling, out of this world? Deaths attributed to God in the Bible can’t be simply excused by me, I can’t accept these people destroyed... I won’t.
Christ is a part of my being, yet these things are in my God. I’ve thought about this for a very long time, only weakening myself. Bringing me apart from my beliefs that were given to me when I was very young through fear.
You have put yourself in an unresolvable muddle this way I'm afraid. The deaths attributed to God that you refuse to accept were God's righteous judgments based on His righteous Law, and Jesus came to die for offenders against that Law, so that you can't truly know Jesus or say that He is a part of your being if you reject the very righteous Law that condemns us all under the wrath of God. Our condemnation under the Law is the reason Jesus died -- to save us from that very condemnation and clothe us in His own righteousness as we are sinners with no righteousness of our own.
I'm not sure it's all that complex as you claim. It's merely hard for fallen nature to understand, and that's because fallen nature is at enmity with God and refuses to submit to His judgments, instead regarding its own fallen morality as superior to His.
The apparent contradictions you are talking about result from giving yourself the right to judge God. If you let God's word judge YOU then you will learn something about why God's judgments are not the atrocities people accuse them of being. They are lessons in God's Law and Justice. They teach what is an offense to the very Law that runs this universe, and by which all human beings will ultimately be judged when we stand before Him.
God gave the entire record of the Old Testament to teach His nature and His judgments, particularly how death is the wages of sin, which is also clearly preached in the New Testament. He gave us His commandments to teach us what sin is, that is, what violations of the Law are. He gave the description of the sin, and He gave the appropriate punishment for the sin, and He also showed in His own punishments of idolatrous nations how ALL sin is ultimately to be punished at the end of time.
Throughout these teachings He also showed what righteousness is, how it's all about loving God, trusting in God and doing His will and how He protects those who obey in this fashion, and is ready to forgive their sins because of their faithfulness and good intentions of obeying Him. He also teaches that He is merciful to all, however, and gives plenty of time to sinners to change their ways before He brings about punishment. Hundreds of years pass before His judgments are enacted against the violators of the Law, and then He sends prophets to warn them that it's coming too. The God-fearers repent, as Nineveh did, and the threatened judgment is put off until they fall back into their old ways.
Throughout all this, too, there is the thread of the promise of a Redeemer to come. All the way from Eden through the prophets of Israel this Anointed One is preached. Adam and Eve who first sinned against God and lost their communion with Him, already put their hope in the Messiah on God's promise to send Him, to save them from the sin they had committed. Every righteous generation afterward put their hope in this Redeemer to come and their trust in the God who promised to send Him. Job was a Gentile considered to have lived in the time of Abraham, who understood that God had promised a Redeemer, a Mediator who would have the authority to plead his case before God.
The things that offend the morality of fallen man in the actions of God all come from the refusal to own up to sin, to personal violations of the moral Law of God, and to acknowledge God's right to judge us for that sin. Once it begins to dawn on you that you are seriously in the wrong in the eyes of the God of love who made you, that you are the offender, that His law is just and good, then you become less inclined to find the fault in Him and begin to find yourself at fault for your rejection of such a loving Creator. You can begin to learn that in fact one single lie makes you a violator of the infinite Law that runs the universe, one single unjust criticism of another, one single lust in the heart, one single coveting of something that belongs to someone else, one single dishonoring thought of your parents or in fact any legitimate authority, and certainly your violation of the first commandment to love God with all your heart and soul which nobody can deny. All are offenses, sins, that NO human being can claim to have never committed, and all it takes is ONE to put you under condemnation by the Law. James 2:10: "For whoever shall keep the whole Law and yet stumble in one point{just ONE}, he is guilty of all {ALL}."
Jesus said "If you love Me you will obey Me." And what did Jesus teach but the Law, which is what the Sermon on the Mount is, the spiritual nature of the Law, the inner sins the Law condemns, not just the outer. The Law condemns ALL. NO-ONE can escape it -- except by repenting as Jesus called us to do, recognizing that the Law is just and that we are hopelessly but justly condemned by it, and asking God for mercy and forgiveness -- which He has made abundantly available through the sacrifice of the Son of God.
Those who call themselves Christians but reject God's judgments are on precarious ground. You can't have Jesus unless you know that all God's judgments are righteousness and justice and that you are condemned justly for your offenses. Jesus came to save us from just that condemnation. What Jesus is it you think you are following if you reject the Jesus who came to save from the very Law that you are so offended by?
If all you do, as so many here do, is shake your fist in God's face and call His condemnations unjust, putting your own judgments above His, you just dig yourself deeper into your own condemnation and take yourself farther away from the forgiveness, love and mercy He is holding out to all through the gift of the Messiah Jesus.
This message has been edited by Faith, 08-26-2005 10:16 PM

Replies to this message:
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 Message 5 by DominionSeraph, posted 08-27-2005 12:29 PM Faith has replied
 Message 31 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2005 4:43 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 38 by purpledawn, posted 08-28-2005 9:51 AM Faith has replied
 Message 46 by Rahvin, posted 08-28-2005 1:18 PM Faith has replied
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AdminBrian
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Message 2 of 301 (237657)
08-27-2005 6:10 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Slim Jim
Junior Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 05-06-2005


Message 3 of 301 (237660)
08-27-2005 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
08-26-2005 9:51 PM


Faith, can you briefly clarify what you mean by "God's Law?" Is it the observance of the Ten Commandments, or is it the observance of the entire Pentateuch? Or am I missing the obvious and God's Law is something completely different?
EDIT: spelling
This message has been edited by Slim Jim, 08-28-2005 12:20 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 08-26-2005 9:51 PM Faith has replied

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 Message 6 by Faith, posted 08-27-2005 1:33 PM Slim Jim has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 301 (237687)
08-27-2005 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
08-26-2005 9:51 PM


There is another possible interpretation...
and that is "That many of the things in the Bible simply never happened." They are tales, some designed to build a sense of People, many designed to justify a particular action, many somewhat distorted accounts of actual events, others just folktales.
Can I suggest that you pick one such tale, Sodom or the Exodus or the Conquest or any other you might choose and we could then explain our individual understanding of it and how it realtes to the concept of Faith?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 08-26-2005 9:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 08-27-2005 1:54 PM jar has replied

DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4754 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 5 of 301 (237697)
08-27-2005 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
08-26-2005 9:51 PM


Faith writes:
cannot have mercy without wrath
Sure you can. The two are unrelated.
If you incur a judge's wrath, you'll get slapped with contempt of court. But a judge need not charge anyone with contempt to show mercy.
Faith writes:
salvation without condemnation
Sounds like a form of Munchausen by Proxy. Put someone in danger, then 'save' them, and reap the rewards.
This message has been edited by DominionSeraph, 08-27-2005 12:29 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 08-26-2005 9:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Faith, posted 08-27-2005 2:59 PM DominionSeraph has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 6 of 301 (237706)
08-27-2005 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Slim Jim
08-27-2005 7:19 AM


What is the Law?
Faith, can you briefly clarify what you mean by "God's Law?" Is it the observance of the Ten Commandments, or is it the observance of the entire Pentateuch? Or am I missing the obvious and God's Law is something completely different?
Good question. I had a sense I wasn't being clear enough, and maybe that's because I'm not completely clear about what all is included in the concept myself. Certainly it's the Ten Commandments, and I also include all the moral Law of Moses in the Pentateuch, excluding the ceremonial and dietary laws which the New Testament treats as fulfilled in Christ.
It's all the moral rules of life God gave to the Israelites, which are really summed up in the Ten Commandments and otherwise explained and elaborated in the rest of the Pentateuch, obedience of which leads to life, and disobedience to cursing and death, as Moses sums up after the whole law has been spelled out to the people -- "Therefore choose life.." Deu 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live."
But in a broader or vaguer sense I find God's law throughout the Bible. For instance, I don't know how it is officially classified but I think of the book of Proverbs as a book of law, as it fleshes out the Ten Commandments in many ways, and certainly describes a supernatural moral reality that operates in the universe, something that reminds me of a version of the Hindu idea of karma or the Chinese Tao and other wisdom literature: "My son, do not forget my law, but let your heart keep my commands; for length of days and long life and peace they will add to you." {Prov 3:1)
But just read the first psalm and it too is spelling out law --"Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly... whatever he does shall prosper. The ungodly are not so ...therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment."
Jesus preached the Law too. The Sermon on the Mount, most thoroughly covered in Matthew 5 through 7, can be understood as an exposition of the Law of Moses, including the Ten Commandments, such as: "You have heard it said of old, 'You shall not murder'... but I say unto you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment" (Mt 5:21-22) and "You have heard it said of old ,'You shall not commit adultery' but I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart, and if your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you, for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish than for your whole body to be cast into hell..." (Mt 5:27-29).
Not a brief explanation I guess.
This message has been edited by Faith, 08-27-2005 01:34 PM

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 Message 3 by Slim Jim, posted 08-27-2005 7:19 AM Slim Jim has not replied

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 Message 206 by deerbreh, posted 09-01-2005 2:16 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 7 of 301 (237713)
08-27-2005 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
08-27-2005 11:43 AM


Re: There is another possible interpretation...
and that is "That many of the things in the Bible simply never happened." They are tales, some designed to build a sense of People, many designed to justify a particular action, many somewhat distorted accounts of actual events, others just folktales.
Can I suggest that you pick one such tale, Sodom or the Exodus or the Conquest or any other you might choose and we could then explain our individual understanding of it and how it realtes to the concept of Faith?
I'd rather let the thread kind of poke around various related themes for a while because as soon as we focus down on one I think it's going to go off topic. I want to try to keep the basic theme in mind of a moral law that is universal and binding on all humanity, that is most thoroughly spelled out in the Bible but also echoed in world literature and other religions.
But the theme that launched this thread in my mind was the constant complaints about God's "evildoings" in His catastrophic punishments of various peoples, yes such as Sodom, such as His calling for the destruction of the Canaanites and the Amalekites, such as the threats of judgment and ultimate punishment of transgressors. The post I quoted from by Prophex describes the offense so many feel at these things, so often expressed on this site, but an understanding of the whole Biblical revelation shows them to be God's righteous judgments that are the just consequence of disobedience of His universal moral law, which is most pithily spelled out in the Ten Commandments, and and given as examples for us to take warning from.
As for the idea of the Bible's being fiction or folktale, my answer to those who consider themselves Christians but reject various parts of the Biblical revelation, is that there is no more external evidence for the reality of the parts you choose to believe and follow than for those you reject as fiction or folktale or allegory, and that puts you in the role of judge, and gives everyone else equal authority to judge as well, which destroys all objective foundations for belief, and do you really want to trust your eternal wellbeing to your own subjective judgments?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 08-27-2005 11:43 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Brian, posted 08-27-2005 2:36 PM Faith has replied
 Message 10 by jar, posted 08-27-2005 3:47 PM Faith has replied
 Message 55 by Nuggin, posted 08-29-2005 2:14 AM Faith has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 8 of 301 (237723)
08-27-2005 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
08-27-2005 1:54 PM


Breaking Laws that you don't know about.
Hi Faith,
I have a slight problem with the following and would appreciate an explanation:
such as His calling for the destruction of the Canaanites and the Amalekites, such as the threats of judgment and ultimate punishment of transgressors.
When you state this:
God's righteous judgments that are the just consequence of disobedience of His universal moral law, which is most pithily spelled out in the Ten Commandments, and and given as examples for us to take warning from.
How do you square this with the fact that neither the Canaanites nor the Amelikites had the Ten Commandments to follow.
So, how can God judge them and find them guilty of disobeying His universal moral law when they didn't know what His universal moral law is?
I could see the point if God had given the Commandments to the Canaanites and they had ignored them, but He didn't, at least the Bible doesn't say that He did.
Cheers.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 08-27-2005 1:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 08-27-2005 11:24 PM Brian has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 9 of 301 (237725)
08-27-2005 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by DominionSeraph
08-27-2005 12:29 PM


cannot have mercy without wrath
Sure you can. The two are unrelated.
If you incur a judge's wrath, you'll get slapped with contempt of court. But a judge need not charge anyone with contempt to show mercy.
Not being charged with contempt IS the mercy, in the case where you soundly deserve to be charged with contempt and would be except for the judge's choosing to have mercy on you. The point is that the idea of mercy is meaningless unless there is a punishment you deserve from which you are being spared by mercy. If punishment is not a threatening reality, something you have seen applied severely but rightly to others or experienced yourself on various occasions, if there is no *real* punishment to be spared FROM, then there is no *real* mercy either.
Faith writes:
salvation without condemnation
Sounds like a form of Munchausen by Proxy. Put someone in danger, then 'save' them, and reap the rewards.
Well, but it's the Moral Law that puts transgressors of it in danger, not a meaningless whim. The Moral Law is good and most of us at least vaguely recognize its goodness -- you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, you shall love your neighbor as yourself -- we believe these rules are good. And the law goes on to say that if you obey it you will not be put in danger.
The danger comes to us from disobeying this good law that most of us know in our hearts IS a good law and even want to obey -- though at the same time there is something that leads us to transgress it -- we put ourselves above others instead of loving our neighbors as ourselves. Even the best of us do.
Start with our universal egocentricity or pride, that's not loving our neighbors as ourselves, that's loving ourselves above our neighbors. We can hardly help it. It's as if we were made that way. And yet most of us agree that conceit and pride are not a good thing. We like the idea of humility and generosity and in fact people are very generous to others often because it makes us feel better to be generous -- that's our affirmation of the moral law right there. But true selflessness is a very rare thing. Usually there is some form of self-deceit going on. Sometimes people will take the bull by the horns and affirm that ego and Me First is a good thing, but often that's just a sort of "Well we can't help it so might as well go with it" and an attempt to brush aside the guilt that we can't really brush aside. "In My Humble Opinion" we say. Well, what's that but the conflict we feel between our recognition of the rightness of humility but our sense of our own peculiar rightness nevertheless? So some go on to say "In my never-to-be-humble opinion" to affirm our inescapable egocentricity that we can't help lamenting in the same breath. Even those who put themselves down a lot often do it as a way to protect their ego. We feel ego wounds deeply, which just shows our basic egocentricity, whether our manner is to object and lash out or nurse them privately and seek subtle revenge or fall into deep depression and self-hatred -- we wouldn't hate ourselves for our failures if we didn't fundamentally love ourselves. We can ape humility but it is usually just another way to be proud of ourselves.
We are a mass of conflicts morally. This is our fallen nature. This is some part of what it means to "know good and evil."
Pride is sort of a "forgiveable" sin in our minds, just something we struggle with privately and most of us can contain well enough to make some room for the pride of others alongside our own. But ALL the moral commandments show up our propensity to put ourselves before others, beginning with putting ourselves above God Himself (Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart...) and again in our heart of hearts we agree that the law is good.
Thou shalt not steal. We wouldn't want to be stolen from, and we don't overtly steal from others, we agree the law is good. But stealing covers many things. Do we steal from our employers by spending too much time on the internet at work? I do -- although I am self employed I should deliver the product sooner than I do many times. I feel terrible and I work ten times as hard periodically to make up for it, only to fall back again. I'm not loving my neighbor as myself. I should put my clients above my self-indulgences. And this is a particularly hard one for me. Others may have more self discipline than I do. We all have our peculiar areas of weakness. There are many ways to steal from others. Steal their good name by slandering them for instance. Being so angry that you don't mind saying something denigrating of another's character, in fact you delight in finding THE most hurtful way of saying something you can think of. Perhaps this is really more a violation of "Thou shalt not murder" than a case of stealing. As some here will recognize, this is another special fault of mine too. In principle we're no better than the out and out thief who takes someone's car or robs a house and gets a rush out of his ill-gotten gain at someone else's expense, or mugs someone and leaves him for dead, or DOES leave him dead.
Sorry I'm getting so wordy. Felt a need to spell out the fact that we both recognize the moral law as good and transgress it all the time, and that THIS is what condemns us, not a whimsical remote or sadistic God at all, but a moral principle that God has established as the foundation of His universe that our own deepest selves KNOW IS GOOD although we violate it all the time and fight it with everything in us too.
MERCY is the suspension of our just punishment for our transgression of this moral law which we recognize as a good and just law.
When people complain about God's catastrophic punishments I think this same moral conflict we all feel is being shown here too: Part of it is our own terror of being judged and the sneaking suspicion that we deserve it as much as the Amalekites so that we can't allow the possibility that ANYBODY deserves such punishment and that way maybe we can convince ourselves that WE don't and even ultimately that it isn't going to happen to us. We are also trying to get God to back down by giving Him a good dose of our own righteous indignation too as if we could intimidate Him with OUR moral judgments against HIM.
But it's all futile. Either we will come to see that God is just in all His doings and that we are no better than the Canaanites or Sodom and Gomorrah and deserve what they deserved, or we will go on fighting Him through a miserable eternity. We will either love the Law because it is good and admit our transgression and beg for God's mercy as transgressors of it, or we will hate the Law and God and be condemned forever.
This is no Munchausen syndrome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by DominionSeraph, posted 08-27-2005 12:29 PM DominionSeraph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by DominionSeraph, posted 08-27-2005 4:24 PM Faith has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 301 (237735)
08-27-2005 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
08-27-2005 1:54 PM


Re: There is another possible interpretation...
Let's start if we can with this nugget.
do you really want to trust your eternal wellbeing to your own subjective judgments?
The answer is "Of course I do!" The basic tenet of Christianity is that each and every one of us will be judged based on our subjective judgments. That is at heart the difference between Christianity and Judaism.
As for the idea of the Bible's being fiction or folktale, my answer to those who consider themselves Christians but reject various parts of the Biblical revelation, is that there is no more external evidence for the reality of the parts you choose to believe and follow than for those you reject as fiction or folktale or allegory, and that puts you in the role of judge, and gives everyone else equal authority to judge as well, which destroys all objective foundations for belief,
I see two possible areas where I disagree with the part quoted above. First, there is overwhelming evidence that many of the things in the Bible simply never happened or did not happen as described. This includes the Flood, the Garden of Eden, the Creation stories, the Exodus, the Conquest of Canaan, the Tower of Babel and many others.
You may not accept the evidence, do not accept the evidence, but that has nothing to do with either the validity of the evidence or of the conclusions. Many of us do look at the evidence and find it compelling and in fact overwhelming and sufficient.
The second issue is that religion and Faith are not based on fact but rather on a series of beliefs. I believe that the meaning of the parable of the ass on the Sabbath is true regardless of whether or not the incident happened. I believe the meaning of the story of Adam, Eve and the Fruit is true regardless of whether or not the incident ever happened. I believe the message of Jesus is true regardless of whether or not there ever was such a person.
How is the meaning of the story of Adam, Eve and the Fruit different if it never happened?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 08-27-2005 1:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 08-27-2005 7:34 PM jar has replied
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 08-27-2005 7:53 PM jar has replied

DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4754 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 11 of 301 (237748)
08-27-2005 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Faith
08-27-2005 2:59 PM


Faith writes:
Not being charged with contempt IS the mercy,
Sorry, I was unclear.
Pissing off the judge will get you slapped with contempt. But a judge doesn't have to be pissed off and charge you with contempt for him to let you off lightly for the original charge. There's no requirement for the judge to ever be mad at anyone.
Faith writes:
Well, but it's the Moral Law that puts transgressors of it in danger,
Who made the Law and who made the transgressors?
Faith writes:
The Moral Law is good and most of us at least vaguely recognize its goodness -- you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, you shall love your neighbor as yourself -- we believe these rules are good.
Ain't Game Theory grand?
Faith writes:
But true selflessness is a very rare thing.
It's an impossible thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Faith, posted 08-27-2005 2:59 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 08-27-2005 7:23 PM DominionSeraph has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 12 of 301 (237809)
08-27-2005 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by DominionSeraph
08-27-2005 4:24 PM


Faith writes:
Not being charged with contempt IS the mercy,
===========
Sorry, I was unclear.
Pissing off the judge will get you slapped with contempt. But a judge doesn't have to be pissed off and charge you with contempt for him to let you off lightly for the original charge. There's no requirement for the judge to ever be mad at anyone.
The judge doesn't have to be mad at you to slap you with contempt. Contempt of court is an objective matter, just like the rest of the law. The judge also doesn't have to be angry or have any feeling whatever in order to throw the book at you for the original charge. It's all according to his understanding of the requirement of the law.
The expression "God's wrath" is really more of a description from our point of view, how it feels to us, not a description of God as actually angry. Wrath is the Law in operation against those who transgress it. It's inevitable and exacting.
Mercy is a gift the judge may give according to his own judgment, and release you from your deserved punishment, for the contempt charge or for the original charge or whatever. It's up to the discretion of the court, not the judge's mood of the moment, unless he's a really bad judge. Sparing you his bad mood would hardly qualify as mercy except in the most childish sense.
Faith writes:
Well, but it's the Moral Law that puts transgressors of it in danger,
===========
Who made the Law and who made the transgressors?
God of course, but my point was to show that the law is good and that most of us know that and yet transgress it. Judgment is not the capriciousness of God, it's the inexorable operation of the moral law that runs the universe. This Law issues from His very Being, characterizes His own moral nature, and since we were originally made in the image of that Being, we recognize the goodness of the Law in spite of ourselves as I've been saying. Our disobedience is what turns the Law into an instrument of punishment and God into a God of wrath, makes Him remote and angry-seeming to us. If you hope to make God responsible for your transgressions, have another think. Despite our transgressions He has offered a way out of our deserved punishment from the very beginning.
Faith writes:
But true selflessness is a very rare thing.
==========
It's an impossible thing.
That is true for fallen humanity. But it wasn't impossible for Jesus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by DominionSeraph, posted 08-27-2005 4:24 PM DominionSeraph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by DominionSeraph, posted 08-28-2005 6:17 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 13 of 301 (237817)
08-27-2005 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
08-27-2005 3:47 PM


Re: There is another possible interpretation...
Must have been quite a genius, whoever the anonymous writer was who made up the character and teachings of Jesus. Pretty amazing geniuses who made up all the OT stories you say are fiction too. Too bad they're all anonymous so they never got any appreciation for it.
Well, good luck with your subjective judgments, Jar. I don't know what else to say.
I guess I could ask: So is your view of the Moral Law that it was all made up too and has nothing to do with God, or what? So what are we redeemed from through Jesus Christ, or saved from, or is all that fiction too?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 08-27-2005 3:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Theodoric, posted 08-27-2005 7:40 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 15 by jar, posted 08-27-2005 7:42 PM Faith has replied
 Message 16 by Theodoric, posted 08-27-2005 7:43 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 56 by Nuggin, posted 08-29-2005 2:27 AM Faith has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 14 of 301 (237821)
08-27-2005 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
08-27-2005 7:34 PM


Re: There is another possible interpretation...
Yup sure is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 08-27-2005 7:34 PM Faith has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 301 (237822)
08-27-2005 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
08-27-2005 7:34 PM


Re: There is another possible interpretation...
What moral law? So far no one has shown an objective moral law, much less one that's changeless.
Morality is certainly made and determined by people. Even you accept that. It changes over time and depends on the exact circustances in each incident.
GOD, not Jesus, granted forgivness to ALL mankind, but with some very specific limitations. We are expected to try to Love GOD and to Love others as we love ourselves.
Try. That's all, just try to do what's right.
It really is as simple as that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 08-27-2005 7:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 08-27-2005 8:00 PM jar has replied
 Message 48 by DominionSeraph, posted 08-28-2005 7:22 PM jar has not replied

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