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Author Topic:   A Question About Deception
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 61 of 75 (321323)
06-14-2006 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by randman
06-14-2006 12:48 AM


Re: no deception
randman writes:
... quite a lot to indicate they knew it was wrong.
The text indicates that they were told not to eat the fruit, not that they "knew" it was "wrong".
Having the knowledge of good and evil (right and wrong) before obtaining the knowledge of good and evil would completely negate the point of the story. Eve ate the fruit because she was completely innocent - she had no way of evaluating the serpent's claim.
-------------
Remind me again, what does this have to do with the deception of an old-looking young universe?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by randman, posted 06-14-2006 12:48 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 62 of 75 (321325)
06-14-2006 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by ringo
06-14-2006 1:42 AM


Re: no deception
They knew they were not suppossed to eat the fruit, right?
Or are you claiming they didn't even know that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 06-14-2006 1:42 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by ringo, posted 06-14-2006 1:51 AM randman has replied
 Message 73 by ramoss, posted 06-14-2006 11:27 AM randman has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 63 of 75 (321326)
06-14-2006 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by randman
06-14-2006 1:47 AM


Re: no deception
randman writes:
They knew they were not suppossed to eat the fruit, right?
Knowledge of yes and no is not the same as knowledge of right and wrong.
As I said, the story is about them (us, really) obtaining the knowledge of good and evil. It is nonsensical to pretend that they already had it.

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 Message 62 by randman, posted 06-14-2006 1:47 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by randman, posted 06-14-2006 2:12 AM ringo has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 64 of 75 (321330)
06-14-2006 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by ringo
06-14-2006 1:51 AM


Re: no deception
They knew they were not supposed to eat the fruit. They knew it was wrong. They were not intimate with the concept...that's true, and so they lacked knowledge, but that doesn't mean they didn't know it was wrong to disobey God and eat the fruit.
If they didn't know it was wrong, then why the punishment? You seem to be arguing you think they believed it was OK to disobey God.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by ringo, posted 06-14-2006 1:51 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by ringo, posted 06-14-2006 2:25 AM randman has replied
 Message 66 by sidelined, posted 06-14-2006 2:27 AM randman has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 65 of 75 (321331)
06-14-2006 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by randman
06-14-2006 2:12 AM


Re: no deception
randman writes:
They knew they were not supposed to eat the fruit. They knew it was wrong.
That's not the same thing.
Suppose two-year-old Eve asks for a cookie and mommy says, "No." If daddy gives her a cookie, does she "know" it's "wrong" to take it? All she knows is that mommy doesn't want her to have it.
Once again, the concept of "wrong" was completely undefined until after they ate the fruit.
If they didn't know it was wrong, then why the punishment?
There was no punishment. They obtained the knowledge that life was going to be hard (painful child-bearing and rearing, hard work) - just as we all learn about real life when we lose our childlike innocence.
You seem to be arguing you think they believed it was OK to disobey God.
Of course they believed it was OK. They had no conception of good and evil, right and wrong, OK and not OK. Once again, that's the point of the story.
You might as well argue that Jack already had the giant's magic harp before he ever climbed the beanstock.

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by randman, posted 06-14-2006 2:28 AM ringo has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 66 of 75 (321332)
06-14-2006 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by randman
06-14-2006 2:12 AM


Re: no deception
randman
they were not intimate with the concept...that's true, and so they lacked knowledge, but that doesn't mean they didn't know it was wrong to disobey God and eat the fruit.
You do know that you have contradicted yourself in this sentence don't you?
To lack knowledge is the same as saying you do not know. So yes , they did not know that it was wrong to eat the fruit. This does not mean to say they cannot understand the command given to them not to eat the fruit, just that they cannot comprehend the moral issue behind it.
That said they were indeed obeying God as evidenced by Eve's words to the serpent "And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."
This explains succicntly the reason why the serpent was successful in his deception. Eve had no judgemental ability for the good or bad of her actions and could not form an account of the outcome of her actions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by randman, posted 06-14-2006 2:12 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 67 of 75 (321333)
06-14-2006 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by ringo
06-14-2006 2:25 AM


Re: no deception
Yea, but somehow I don't think you'd curse the ground and boot the 2 year old out of home for doing something they were incapable of realizing was wrong. Oh, and getting booted out of Eden was punishment. So was death, and the ground being cursed, etc, etc,....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by ringo, posted 06-14-2006 2:25 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 68 of 75 (321334)
06-14-2006 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by sidelined
06-14-2006 2:27 AM


Re: no deception
You do know that you have contradicted yourself in this sentence don't you?
No I haven't. People can know things without being intimate with them.
To lack knowledge is the same as saying you do not know.
Nope, not at all. You can lack knowledge of an area or thing but still know about the thing. They knew it was wrong, but they didn't have an intimacy with what wrong really was. Their awareness and knowledge was limited. For example, I know what a woman's cycle is, but I haven't experienced it, and so my knowledge is limited.
Think of it this way to use an old-fashioned and biblical use of "know." A man may know who a woman is, but not "know" her.
God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it,
is this 1984 or something? She clearly knows God doesn't want them to eat the fruit. Isn't that what it says?
God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it,
How can you read it any other way? You seem to be claiming she is saying God said to eat the fruit.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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 Message 66 by sidelined, posted 06-14-2006 2:27 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by sidelined, posted 06-14-2006 11:11 AM randman has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 69 of 75 (321335)
06-14-2006 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by randman
06-14-2006 2:28 AM


Re: no deception
randman writes:
... getting booted out of Eden was punishment.
Well, no, it wasn't. It was to remove Adam and Eve from the possibility of eternal life. Along with the knowledge of good and evil comes the realization of mortality, something the innocent two-year-old did not have.
... the ground being cursed....
Once again, it was the realization that the ground was "cursed" that was new. There was no change in the ground itself, but Adam and Eve came to understand that they had to work to get a living from the ground. The cookies didn't just appear magically in the jar.

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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 70 of 75 (321360)
06-14-2006 7:12 AM


Warning - Wandering
This thread is veering away from the original question of the originator.
So I have a question, if God is willing to decieve mankind about the age of the Earth, where then does the deception actually lie?
Please keep on task and don't rehash old arguments.
Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the Moderation Thread.
If anyone responds in this thread they will receive a 24 hour timeout.
Thank you Purple

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 71 of 75 (321422)
06-14-2006 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by randman
06-14-2006 2:34 AM


Re: no deception
randman
Nope, not at all. You can lack knowledge of an area or thing but still know about the thing.
We are talking about knowing the difference between good and evil.
They knew it was wrong, but they didn't have an intimacy with what wrong really was
??? If they knew that it was wrong eve could have argued such with the serpent. She did not.
For example, I know what a woman's cycle is, but I haven't experienced it, and so my knowledge is limited.
So by way of analogy Eve knew what evil was but had not experienced it so her knowledge was limited is that what you are saying here?
is this 1984 or something? She clearly knows God doesn't want them to eat the fruit. Isn't that what it says?
And she did not eat of the tree. She was obeying the command and expressed such to the serpent. Since she did not understand{unless you now wish to state that there was death before the fall} the implications of disobeying she could not have understood that which the serpent was asking of her.
Why does God create a serpent to trick Eve when she was obeying the command he asked of her?
Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by randman, posted 06-14-2006 2:34 AM randman has replied

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 72 of 75 (321430)
06-14-2006 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by sidelined
06-14-2006 11:11 AM


Re: no deception
Think of it this way. Eve knew that if she ate of it that she would die and that was not a good thing, but she did not know what death entailed fully perhaps.
On not arguing with the serpent, the serpent wasn't trying to argue with her. He was trying to plant distrust of God in her mind and succeeded. Even with that, Paul writes that Adam was not deceived and so he did wrong out of pure allegience to his wife, loving her more than God.
But maybe this is getting too much off-topic.
To get back on-topic, the idea that because God has created a world where we have to search for answers is an indication of deception on God's part is a miguided and wrong idea.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 73 of 75 (321433)
06-14-2006 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by randman
06-14-2006 1:47 AM


Re: no deception
What did they not have before eating of the fruit of the Tree?
They did not have the Knowledge of Good and Evil. They were unable to determine if something was right or wrong. If they were able to do that, then, they already would have KNOWN about right and wrong.
They might have been told, but without understanding of the consequences.
They had the ability to do wrong. Just not the knowledge to know if what they did was wrong or not.
In other words, god set them up. If man did not begin to know the difference between right and wrong, man would have been forever like that animals. It is that knowlege that brings man closer to god, by giving him a choice to life a sanctified life by choosing good over evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by randman, posted 06-14-2006 1:47 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 74 of 75 (321440)
06-14-2006 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by ramoss
06-14-2006 11:27 AM


what was missing
You can pose the same questions about the Tree of Life. What was missing before someone ate from the Tree of Life was living forever. Death did not enter because of some act of Adam and Eve, it was already there. Adam and Eve were going to die, just like anything else. It is normal. What would have been abnormal would have been to live forever, and that was the purpose of the Tree of Life.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 75 of 75 (321441)
06-14-2006 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by ramoss
06-14-2006 11:27 AM


Re: no deception
why don't you propose a new topic if you really want me to answer?
Admin has already stated this is veering off-topic. Plus, I think my previous comments covered this several times over.

This message is a reply to:
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