Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,352 Year: 3,609/9,624 Month: 480/974 Week: 93/276 Day: 21/23 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Socialism in Venezuela has made illiteracy a thing of the past
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3944
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 166 of 193 (258687)
11-10-2005 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by nator
11-10-2005 7:58 PM


A bright spot in an otherwise mess of a topic?
This topic was doomed to spread into general discussions of socialism and who knows what else. I think it's running free, beyond any possiblity of moderator guidence.
That said, I think the content of your message is far to significant to get buried in the mess. Suggest you recycle it into its own "Coffee House" topic.
Moose (operating in the semi-admin mode)
Added by edit: That new topic might be a good place for you to throw a little AdminSchraf weight around.
This message has been edited by minnemooseus, 11-10-2005 08:56 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by nator, posted 11-10-2005 7:58 PM nator has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4918 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 167 of 193 (258730)
11-10-2005 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by nator
11-10-2005 7:58 PM


the objective experts think it's a good idea
The comments you linked to are total bunk. Note the prediction of economic growth to be down to 1.9% FOREVER. That's total BS, as are most of the comments. For example, one claim is growth will come from the developing world. OK, but how does that mean stocks are not good investments then since there are companies and specifically mutual funds targetting growth in the developing world.
The fact is you can find people to predict just about anything. Most experts think it's a good idea for people to invest in stocks for the long-term unless they have better investment opportunities and sinking more cash into social security is not one of them. If you don't want your money invested, then you don't have to.
The other thing to keep in mind is concerning the economy, and the stock market, most "experts" are wrong. Their predictions usually don't hold true. I learned a long time ago never to trust the advice of a stock broker or analyst.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by nator, posted 11-10-2005 7:58 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by bobbins, posted 11-11-2005 12:42 AM randman has replied
 Message 177 by nator, posted 11-11-2005 5:07 PM randman has replied

bobbins
Member (Idle past 3632 days)
Posts: 122
From: Manchester, England
Joined: 06-23-2005


Message 168 of 193 (258751)
11-11-2005 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by randman
11-10-2005 11:25 PM


Re: the objective experts think it's a good idea
And the tea leaves are true with regard to predicting economic performance?
If your last statement (quote marks not-withstanding) were true they would not be experts and Mrs Scoggins of 123 Anywhere St., Whatsisname would be economic advisor to the treasury.
When experts state one thing you believe in and another you don't and you discredit them for the second, surely you should ignore the first piece of advice as well.
Experts, right or wrong, have two huge advantages over you , they know the field and they use the facts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by randman, posted 11-10-2005 11:25 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 1:04 PM bobbins has not replied

Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6494 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 169 of 193 (258769)
11-11-2005 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by randman
11-10-2005 11:22 AM


Re: public schools are socialist and should be discontinued
quote:
You can find someone to create some pseudo-statistic all you want, but it doesn't change the truth.
You mean someone like the federal institutes in charge of monitoring health profiles for the US and pediatrics groups? Yeah, pseudo statistics..LOL!...as opposed to the data you presented that rebut what I presented? Oh, I forgot, you did not provide any.
You lose.
quote:
Take the poverty indicator. Do you know how that is calculated? Basically, 90% of American children that "live in poverty" live far above what the middle class lives in much of the rest of the world.
Yet another assertion without support.
quote:
Your stats don't speak to that
Because the stats speak to the actual situation in the US as opposed to your irrelevant personal anecdotes..you do realize that your anecdotes have no bearing on the situation for the people measured in these studies? It is like Bill Gates wondering why everyone else is not a billionaire.
quote:
You mentioned Texas. Now, could one possibility that children in Texas are not as "covered" be that many are not actually American citizens???
Any evidence to back up that they measure non-American citizens? Nope, didnt think so...and besides, Arizona, New Mexico and California all have buttloads of illegal immigrants and yet, their percentage of unisured children is almost half that of Texas.
quote:
At the start of this, I pointed out that if you include migrant workers and non-Americans, there are issues and a lot of that has to do with the fact we have a very porous border down there, and as poor as you see these people, they see being poor in America as better than what they could have in Mexico.
So how does that explain the lousy numbers from the rest of the country..or is our "porous border" with Canada the explanation for over 10% uninsured children in most of New England?..oh wait, Canada has national health care and are not coming to the US for our shit public services.
quote:
So frankly, you are the one lying here, or at least obfuscating the truth and not being straighforward and honest.
Another baseless assertion. At least I provided support for my arguements..you have not...so you demonstrate your own lack of ethics, morals and integrity..but to be fair, you have been lying in your posts since you joined this board so why stop now?...glad to see you sticking to your Xian principles
quote:
The truth, which you claimed was a lie, is that only after you move up beyond the poverty line and beyond a low income, are your kids not qualified, and so it is the middle class that sometimes cannot or does not buy health insurance, and they are not poor.
The truth which you claimed is a lie is that millions of children are uninsured in the US. You have not addressed this point and merely stuck you head in your butt to avoid dealing with it. But it is the truth and the reality.#
quote:
The reasons are varied, but it is cheaper to pay out-of-pocket for medical expenses as long as you don't have a serious illness.
Oh, yeah...I see your math skills are as poor as your knowledge of biology. It is cheaper to pay full price for each doctors visit than a $10 co-pay for each doctors visit when you are covered by an HMO? LOL!
You are proving that another public service in the US has failed, the education system.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by randman, posted 11-10-2005 11:22 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 1:11 PM Mammuthus has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5838 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 170 of 193 (258786)
11-11-2005 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Francis Marion
11-08-2005 4:47 PM


Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I am short of time lately and so just hitting the first few replies I can get to. Glad to see you are interested in discussing things with me. If you want me to work on your blog project just shoot me an email.
On to this topic...
Socialism is a very desirable state; however, it has never succeeded because of human nature.
Socialism has worked in Scandinavia. I'm still baffled when people claim this, when socialist nations have the highest standards of life quality in the world.
In a true socialist system all members must work and live within a single goal. It only takes one member to take more than his share or only one member to do less than his share for the entire system to fail.
If this is meant to deny the success of Socialist nations by reclassifying them, then it is the No True Scotsman fallacy.
While I don't agree with the above classification, and I don't believe that the human animal is inherently selfish, I do agree that humans like things. They like to have things and feel really good at accomplishing things, which obtaining objects and services is a sign of accomplishment.
I do believe that is why communism is less likely to work, except on small scales. Socialism does not bar ownership nor industry. Believe me, I have been in Scandinavia and they have plenty of things, very very nice things.
I had a girlfriend that was unemployed in Denmark and she lived better than I did in the US with a really nice job. I watched them receive the protection of a healthcare system and so not slip into poverty over health issues, which my own family had been forced to face.
I'm sorry but if you really want quality of life, try living in a socialist nation like Sweden or Denmark. Living examples of success beat out theories any day of the week. Ask any of them what's in it for them.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Francis Marion, posted 11-08-2005 4:47 PM Francis Marion has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 1:06 PM Silent H has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4918 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 171 of 193 (258859)
11-11-2005 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by bobbins
11-11-2005 12:42 AM


Re: the objective experts think it's a good idea
Ask any of these experts if they would "invest" their money into social security, adding additional payments, if they had the chance, or the stock market, and you can bet the charade will drop in a hurry when they would have to put their money where their mouth is.
Plus, if you read closely, many of them have beefs with the president's plan, not the overall concept. Specifically, and I agree here, that taking a point off or so from what people's accounts earn, requiring them to earn over and above social security and inflation before allowing the account to increase makes it more risky.
In other words, the accounts should not have to off-set the 1% or so and inflation built into increases in social security.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by bobbins, posted 11-11-2005 12:42 AM bobbins has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4918 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 172 of 193 (258860)
11-11-2005 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Silent H
11-11-2005 6:28 AM


How many immigrants do they allow to come and live there, unemployed and receive benefits. Sure, if you keep poor people out, it's a lot easier to provide more social services. That does not mean socialism works. They shut the poor out. That's how it works.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Silent H, posted 11-11-2005 6:28 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Silent H, posted 11-11-2005 2:29 PM randman has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4918 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 173 of 193 (258861)
11-11-2005 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Mammuthus
11-11-2005 3:14 AM


Re: public schools are socialist and should be discontinued
Do the math yourself. Paying $6000 a year for a HMO, or more, is onyl cheaper if you go to the doctor enough to have over $6000 a year in bills. I'm married with 4 children, and I can tell you we didn't spend that much last year.
Now, if you are really sick and currently covered, it is better and cheaper. It all depends on the situation, but keep in mind that for the most people, you pay more via insurance. If you didn't, the insurance companies would not have any money left over to pay for the few they lose money on. It's a for-profit business, and they can't make money if HMOs are cheaper for everyone than paying out of pocket. In fact, they have to have the vast majority of people paying a lot more than they would out of pocket to be able to cover the few with serious illnesses they lose money on. That's how insurance works.
I provided truth and facts. You provided nothing but slander.
Have a nice life.
This message has been edited by randman, 11-11-2005 01:12 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Mammuthus, posted 11-11-2005 3:14 AM Mammuthus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Silent H, posted 11-11-2005 2:40 PM randman has not replied
 Message 178 by nator, posted 11-11-2005 5:21 PM randman has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5838 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 174 of 193 (258898)
11-11-2005 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by randman
11-11-2005 1:06 PM


How many immigrants do they allow to come and live there, unemployed and receive benefits. Sure, if you keep poor people out, it's a lot easier to provide more social services. That does not mean socialism works. They shut the poor out. That's how it works.
I'm sorry but wtf are you talking about? Since 911 they have tightened immigration and benefits but not removed it. And before that it was the same as everywhere else.
When I lived in Denmark it was with an unemployed person and there was a whole block of apartments dedicated to immigrant housing. Along with immigrants from outside Europe, it also contained immigrants from Europe such as Sweden. I knew some that were also poor and unemployed. I myself was unemplyed at that point in time and was slated for acceptance into Denmark.
Its not that they do not have poor people and unemployed and so have a high standard of living. They do have poor people, they have allowed in poor people, and they end up with a higher standard of living. They are cared for until they can stand on their own two feet, instead of being wiped out by illness and perpetual poverty.
I'm trying to figure out where you got your idea and what that has to do with socialism. What prevents an affluent country from providing necessary services to all? The key is the affluence of the nation, not of any individual.
Also, you are suggesting that capitalist systems cannot be swamped? Or is it that the nature of the world is that there must always be a poor underclass which should starve and stay sick?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 1:06 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 2:41 PM Silent H has replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5838 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 175 of 193 (258903)
11-11-2005 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by randman
11-11-2005 1:11 PM


Re: public schools are socialist and should be discontinued
You are right that it may cost more for insurance than out of pocket payments for healthcare with an HMO. It all depends. It is gambling on your health. And unfortunately the odds are stacked in their favor.
Unfortunately it is a situation where most are forced into playing the game because they simply cannot risk not having the money when a health cost occurs.
What you hae perfectly demonstrated why HMOs are the worst socialized medical system to institute. Public socialized medical systems which do not rely on profits provide much more security for cheaper cost.
Hahaha, as I write this I am watching a commercial for the new private medical care system that netherlands is putting into action this January. After promising a drop in costs and better service, it is already known it will cost everyone more, and may hit the poor the hardest.
Everyone is mandated by law to play the game. You will actually be fined for not having the very coverage you just decried. Oh yeah and the taxes stay the same.
Gotta love conservatives.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 1:11 PM randman has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4918 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 176 of 193 (258904)
11-11-2005 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Silent H
11-11-2005 2:29 PM


Aid to Dependant Children
Here in the US, we tried welfare in the Aid to Dependant Children, which is still in effect but with some reforms.
Unfortunately, it had the opposite effect. Instead of being a stepping-stone to help poor kids get ahead in life, it produced more and more fatherless children borne of teen-aged Moms that decided it was better to get pregnant and get their own apartment than to stay at home and in school. Sometimes it was unwanted pregnancies. Other times, it was not.
But the end result is we created a growing underclass of kids, particularly African-American kids, with no fathers, living with their Moms or grandmothers on welfare, as a way of life. In some cities, as much as 90% of black children were in families on welfare without fathers at home.
So it was horrible. It destroyed rather than helped black America.
So it's a little more complicated than you present it to be. Most Americans don't mind if people use some government assistance to help them to get themselves to a better situation, but it hasn't always worked that way.
You tell me what we should do to help solve the dilemna?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Silent H, posted 11-11-2005 2:29 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by nator, posted 11-11-2005 5:28 PM randman has replied
 Message 188 by Silent H, posted 11-12-2005 6:32 AM randman has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2188 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 177 of 193 (258933)
11-11-2005 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by randman
11-10-2005 11:25 PM


Re: the objective experts think it's a good idea
So, if you don't believe any financial experts about anything, then you must also be very skeptical of the President's expert analysts who came up with this plan you seem to think is flawless.
Right?
And you have yet to really address the possible problem of millions of people with their retirement savings invested in a stock market that then crashes.
What happens then, to all of those penniless millions, randman?
What do you do for them? What is the plan when that happens?
(because it is a matter of when, not if)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by randman, posted 11-10-2005 11:25 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 6:05 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2188 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 178 of 193 (258939)
11-11-2005 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by randman
11-11-2005 1:11 PM


Re: public schools are socialist and should be discontinued
Think of the freedom that Americans would have to leave a bad employment suituation or perhaps become an entrepeneur if they never had to worry about losing their employer-sponsored health insurance.
Think of the emotional impact on a family if mom or dad doesn't have to remain at the job they hate for another 15 years because the benefits are so good and they can't risk losing them?
How many people who would otherwise take the plunge and start their own business but are afraid to because they can't afford to pay their own insurance? That probably does a lot to stifle the entrepenurial spirit.
I might even imagine that the number of life births would go up because free prenatal care would be very common (the US ranks very poorly among insustrialized nations in infant mortality). I also think that perhaps the number of abortions might go down if birth control was free, and if the expenses of childbirth, doctor's visits, etc., were totally covered.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 1:11 PM randman has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2188 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 179 of 193 (258944)
11-11-2005 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by randman
11-11-2005 2:41 PM


you have believed the propaganda, randman
Of course, I predict that you will call all of this information "bunk", and ignore it.
I challenge you to actually support your claims with reputable, verificable sources.
...not that I expect you to, of course.
link
Five Media Myths About Welfare
1. Poor women have more children because of the "financial incentives" of welfare benefits.
Repeated studies show no correlation between benefit levels and women'schoice to have children. (See, for example, Urban Institute Policy and Research Report, Fall/93.) States providing relatively higher benefits do not show higher birth rates among recipients.
In any case, welfare allowances are far too low to serve as any kind of "incentive": A mother on welfare can expect about $90 in additional AFDC(Aid to Families with Dependent Children) benefits if she has another child.
Furthermore, the real value of AFDC benefits, which do not rise with inflation, has fallen 37 percent during the last two decades (The Nation,12/12/94). Birth rates among poor women have not dropped correspondingly.
The average family receiving AFDC has 1.9 children -- about the same as thenational average.
2. We don't subsidize middle-class families.
Much of the welfare debate has centered around the idea of "family caps"--denying additional benefits to women who have children whilereceiving aid. This is often presented as simple justice: "A family thatworks does not get a raise for having a child. Why then should a family that doesn't work?" columnist Ellen Goodman wrote in the Boston Globe(4/16/92).
In fact, of course, families do receive a premium for additional children,in the form of a $2,450 tax deduction. There are also tax credits topartially cover child care expenses, up to a maximum of $2,400 per child.No pundit has suggested that middle-class families base their decision tohave children on these "perks."
3. The public is fed up with spending money on the poor.
"The suspicion that poorer people are getting something for nothing is much harder to bear than the visible good fortune of the richer," wrote columnist Mary McGrory (Washington Post, 1/15/95). But contrary to such claims from media pundits, the general public is not so hard-hearted. In a December 1994 poll by the Center for the Study of Policy Attitudes (CSPA),80 percent of respondents agreed that the government has "a responsibilityto try to do away with poverty." (Fighting Poverty in America: A Study ofAmerican Attitudes, CSPA)
Support for "welfare" is lower than support for "assistance to the poor,"but when CSPA asked people about their support for AFDC, described as "the federal welfare program which provides financial support for unemployed poor single mothers with children," only 21 percent said funding should be cut, while 29 percent said it should be increased.
4. We've spent over $5 trillion on welfare since the '60s and it hasn't worked.
Conservatives and liberals alike use this claim as proof that federal poverty programs don't work, since after all that "lavish" spending, people are still poor. But spending on AFDC, the program normally referred to as welfare, totaled less than $500 billion from 1964 to 1994--less than 1.5percent of federal outlays for that period, and about what the Pentagon spends in two years.
To get the $5 trillion figure, "welfare spending" must be defined to include all means-tested programs, including Medicaid, food stamps, student lunches, scholarship aid and many other programs. Medicaid, which is by far the largest component of the $5 trillion, goes mostly to the elderly and disabled; only about 16 percent of Medicaid spending goes to health carefor AFDC recipients. ("What Do We Spend on 'Welfare'?," Center for Budgetand Policy Priorities)
Furthermore, the poverty rate did fall between 1964 and 1973, from 19 percent to 11 percent, with the advent of "Great Society" programs. Since the 1970s, economic forces like declining real wages as well as reduced benefit levels have contributed to rising poverty rates.
5. Anyone who wants to get off welfare can just get a job.
Many welfare recipients do work to supplement meager benefits (Harper's,4/94). But workforce discrimination and the lack of affordable child caremake working outside the home difficult for single mothers. And thelow-wage, no-benefit jobs available to most AFDC recipients simply do notpay enough to lift a family out of poverty.
Although it is almost never mentioned in conjunction with the welfare debate, the U.S. Federal Reserve has an official policy of raising interestrates whenever unemployment falls below a certain point--now about 6.2percent (Extra!, 9-10/94). In other words, if all the unemployed women onwelfare were to find jobs, currently employed people would have to be thrown out of work to keep the economy from "overheating."
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-11-2005 05:29 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 2:41 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 6:01 PM nator has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4918 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 180 of 193 (258959)
11-11-2005 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by nator
11-11-2005 5:28 PM


Re: you have believed the propaganda, randman
Look at the increase in the numbers of children borne and reared without a father in the home since welfare was instituted.
You can twist stats any way you want, but the bottom line is encouraging teen-age girls to be welfare Moms was a disaster.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by nator, posted 11-11-2005 5:28 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by RAZD, posted 11-11-2005 6:16 PM randman has not replied
 Message 183 by nator, posted 11-11-2005 6:28 PM randman has not replied
 Message 185 by nator, posted 11-11-2005 6:36 PM randman has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024