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Author Topic:   Atheist Appreciation of Biblical Wisdom and Inspiration
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 105 (590206)
11-06-2010 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Straggler
11-06-2010 8:29 AM


Re: Dishonest With Little
Straggler writes:
PD writes:
I find it mind boggling that Christians haven't taken this opportunity to fill this thread with verses of wisdom, lessons, or inspiration for daily living.
Dearest PD: Perhaps I missed the phrase "daily living" in Mr. Straggler's OP. If Mr. Straggler's OP does not limit this thread to the narrow perameters of yours and his ideology, perhaps, therefore, Mr. Straggler was not limiting this thread to aspects of what you consider, daily living to imply. Perhaps it's time to clarify the perameters of Mr. Straggler's OP.
Straggler writes:
That was more what I had in mind.
Mr. Straggler, sir: Perhaps if that's what you had in mind, you should have said so in your OP so as for us contributors to your thread would have limited our stuff to what you had in mind as opposed to what you typed into your OP.
Below are significant words in the questions you raised and their Online Dictionary definitions applied in your thread which led us participants to understand what you were asking for:
Online Dictionary; narrative:
1. an account, report, or story, as of events, experiences, etc
(Embolding mine for emphasis.)
wisdom:
1. The ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting; insight.
inspiration:
1. stimulation or arousal of the mind, feelings, etc., to special or unusual activity or creativity
meaning:
1. the sense or significance of a word, sentence, symbol, etc.; import; semantic or lexical content
Insight:
1. The capacity to discern the true nature of a situation; penetration.
Straggler writes:
But even as things stand I have been reading with interest even if not actually contributing to this thread.
Perhaps, Mr. Straggler, this because what you got was what you asked for in your OP, including, btw, message cars in your train of thought that moderator PD derailed, (to be fair, perhaps inadvertently, without adequate thought. May God bless our moderators; all of them).
Significant phrases and paragraphs in your OP defining the perameters of this thread:
staggler writes:
How would those who consider the bible to be a source of wisdom and inspiration suggest that I, as a non-believer, appreciate the more inspirational and timeless wisdom aspects of it?
Are there particular passages that I can be directed to as being of significant timeless wisdom and meaning? Are there particular parts that even a die hard atheist can point to as being inspirational and insightful?
If those with more biblical knowledge than I were to try and pinpoint the parts of the bible that they think stand out as significant regardless of ones belief which parts would they direct me to? And why?
I am not really in a position to dispute people's choices on this so this is more an opportunity for advice and discussion with those I am normally rampantly disagreeing withfeel free to rampantly disagree with each other if the mood takes them.
(Color and embolding mine for emphasis)

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Straggler, posted 11-06-2010 8:29 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Straggler, posted 11-06-2010 6:39 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 78 by purpledawn, posted 11-06-2010 7:20 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 77 of 105 (590209)
11-06-2010 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Buzsaw
11-06-2010 6:02 PM


"what use is the bible to me?"
Hello Buz
Well if it is the phrase "daily living" that you feel is overly confining feel free to ignore that in favour of "in life" or some other such more flexible alternative.
I don't really have any real problem with the definitions of the words you have supplied (even if they aren't strictly the ones I would have gone for) although "true" comes up a lot in your definitions and if taken overly simplistically this will just be another debate about the veracity of the bible.
Buz writes:
Straggler writes:
I am not really in a position to dispute people's choices on this so this is more an opportunity for advice and discussion with those I am normally rampantly disagreeing with........
..........feel free to rampantly disagree with each other if the mood takes them.
(Color and embolding mine for emphasis)
Yep. I did say that.
Far be it for me to stand in the way of a theistic punch-up.
But I guess what I am looking for is not an argument in favour of the veracity of scripture (we have enough of those already and you are unlikley to convert me Buz). I was looking for the universally human aspects (the human condition - whatever that is?) that we can all appreciate regardless of whether we believe in the prophecies or any of the more literal things you have been pursuing.
If a someone who you have no chance of convincing to seek redemption (or whatever asks) "what use is the bible to me?" how would you answer that without trying to convert him?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Buzsaw, posted 11-06-2010 6:02 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Buzsaw, posted 11-07-2010 1:15 AM Straggler has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 78 of 105 (590210)
11-06-2010 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Buzsaw
11-06-2010 6:02 PM


The Speck and the Plank
quote:
Dearest PD: Perhaps I missed the phrase "daily living" in Mr. Straggler's OP. If Mr. Straggler's OP does not limit this thread to the narrow perameters of yours and his ideology, perhaps, therefore, Mr. Straggler was not limiting this thread to aspects of what you consider, daily living to imply. Perhaps it's time to clarify the perameters of Mr. Straggler's OP.
I understood it. That's why I felt it was a wonderful opportunity for Christians.
As for the Topic:
Another lesson I like is in Matthew 7:3-5 and also addressed by Paul in Romans 2:17-23.
Matthew 7:3-5
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
IOW, if one is teaching someone else that it is wrong to (fill in favorite sin), then one should also not be (fill in favorite sin). Lead by example; as opposed to, do as I say not as I do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Buzsaw, posted 11-06-2010 6:02 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Buzsaw, posted 11-07-2010 1:36 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 105 (590242)
11-07-2010 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Straggler
11-06-2010 6:39 PM


Re: "what use is the bible to me?"
Straggler writes:
Well if it is the phrase "daily living" that you feel is overly confining feel free to ignore that in favour of "in life" or some other such more flexible alternative.
I was being facetious when I used the phrase, "Perhaps I missed." The phrase, "daily living" was PDs and not in your OP. You agreed to the implication PD made by usage of that phrase when you said that was what you had in mind.
I don't really have any real problem with the definitions of the words you have supplied (even if they aren't strictly the ones I would have gone for) although "true" comes up a lot in your definitions and if taken overly simplistically this will just be another debate about the veracity of the bible.
That I didn't cite that word should have given you the understanding that I didn't intend on debating what is true. The words I cited were intended only to show the wide perameter of subject from the Bible that appeard to be what you wanted for this thread.
Yep. I did say that.
Far be it for me to stand in the way of a theistic punch-up.
But I guess what I am looking for is not an argument in favour of the veracity of scripture (we have enough of those already and you are unlikley to convert me Buz).
Look, Straggler, nothing I have said should have given you the notion that that was my intention. My intention was to cite stuff in scripture that would be inspirational and give insight, wisdom and to expand learning/knowledge to an athiest.
Of course I would be delighted to see you or another converted. Imo, one would have to be inspired and to be wised up if that were the case.
Some of the prophetical books like Ezekiel, Daniel and Zechariah, for example, should inspire and make one more learned and wise if anyone, be they athiest or theist read them with an objective desire to learn, receive insight and become a little wiser, having done so.
Ezekiel, as I've noted in other threads, especially chapter 36 to 39 might afford some insightful food for thought relative to the phenomenal restoration of Israel. Maybe not. Stuff like this is what inspired me, having never darkened the door of a church or read any Bible for the first 9 years or so of my life.
I guess I would have been considered to be agnostic. This time in my boyhood was during WWII. I remember walking to school with a friend and telling him something like, "how come they don't teach us to fire rifles and become soldiers instead of this Biblical stuff." This was when we moved to town and some neighbors began taking some of us children to Sunday school class and church services.
The war was on everybody's minds, including us children who eagerly listened to radio reports and talk, etc. Then there was magazines like Life etc, showing the devastation and carnage of that terrible war.
An evangelist came to church for special prophecy services and preached on the prophecies at a time when Israel was about to become a nation. I don't remember what texts he used or all that he said, but whatever it was, it inspired my thinking to the point that I went to the alter and received Jesus as lord/master of my life and life giving savior.
Our pastor and the teachers instilled into my mind the necessity as a Christian to read a portion of the Bible daily, pray and attend chruch regularly. I was inspired and mentored to the extent that I chose to follow this advice early in my Christian experience.
It took some time before I really enjoyed the daily routine of reading, but then I began to actually study what I was reading, not only in the prophets, but I loved the Proverbs, was puzzled about Ecclastes (figured it out later in life) and loved to read the inspirational accounts of the life of the patriarch Joseph, the prophet Daniel's harrowing experiences, Shepherd to king, David who smote Goliath, Gideon etc.
I learned insight, good life principles helpful in making a living, getting along with people, and understanding relative to history, what made sense to me as to origins, cultures, and prophetic things like the remarkable restoration of the nation of Israel, climate change, etc, etc.
Some (I say some) of this sort of thing should, imo, do something good for athiests and theists alike as well as make for interesting narrative to read.
If a someone who you have no chance of convincing to seek redemption (or whatever asks) "what use is the bible to me?" how would you answer that without trying to convert him?
Like I say, perhaps you may find some of the Biblical stuff cited above useful and interesting. Cheers!

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Straggler, posted 11-06-2010 6:39 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 105 (590243)
11-07-2010 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by purpledawn
11-06-2010 7:20 PM


Re: The Speck and the Plank
PD writes:
Buzsaw writes:
Dearest PD: Perhaps I missed the phrase "daily living" in Mr. Straggler's OP. If Mr. Straggler's OP does not limit this thread to the narrow perameters of yours and his ideology, perhaps, therefore, Mr. Straggler was not limiting this thread to aspects of what you consider, daily living to imply. Perhaps it's time to clarify the perameters of Mr. Straggler's OP.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I understood it. That's why I felt it was a wonderful opportunity for Christians.
Mmm, LoL. The phrase wasn't even in the OP, madear. It was your words, spun up from whole cloth. Perhaps you need to reread the OP again, more carefully. I was being facetious when I said that perhaps I missed it.
As for the Topic:
Another lesson I like is in Matthew 7:3-5 and also addressed by Paul in Romans 2:17-23.
Matthew 7:3-5
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
IOW, if one is teaching someone else that it is wrong to (fill in favorite sin), then one should also not be (fill in favorite sin). Lead by example; as opposed to, do as I say not as I do.
Your implication is that I was personally attacking. I'm sorry you mistook it that way. My intention was to set the record straight as to what the OP appeared to call for. Fair enough?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by purpledawn, posted 11-06-2010 7:20 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by purpledawn, posted 11-07-2010 5:49 AM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 81 of 105 (590254)
11-07-2010 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Buzsaw
11-07-2010 1:36 AM


Re: The Speck and the Plank
quote:
Mmm, LoL. The phrase wasn't even in the OP, madear. It was your words, spun up from whole cloth. Perhaps you need to reread the OP again, more carefully. I was being facetious when I said that perhaps I missed it.
Yes dear, I understood that you were being facetious. I didn't say the phrase was in the OP. My point is that I understood what Straggler expected participants to provide in the thread. Now that he has clarified, please adjust accordingly and no more discussion about why you should be able to discuss what you want. Stick to the topic.
quote:
Your implication is that I was personally attacking. I'm sorry you mistook it that way. My intention was to set the record straight as to what the OP appeared to call for. Fair enough?
The lesson of the speck and the plank had nothing to do with you, Buz. It had to do with the topic. Otherwise, I would be guilty of not moving the on-topic discussion forward, which is also an example of the speck and the plank lesson. IOW, if as an Admin I chastise people for being off topic or not moving the topic forward, I also should not go off topic or post useless messages that don't move the topic forward. That's why that lesson makes me think of the phrase, lead by example. It's very disappointing when clergy don't follow their own teachings.
NOTE: If you were personally attacking, the Wizard Cat would have spoken. So no more discussion of this, on with the topic. (Buz or anyone else, that means don't respond to this post unless you're discussing the speck and the plank lesson.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Buzsaw, posted 11-07-2010 1:36 AM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 105 (590289)
11-07-2010 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by iano
11-05-2010 11:51 AM


Re: With or without You
iano writes:
I'm dealing with an OP who would agree that it is. If not in letter (anymore that the decrying of internet sex is there in letter) then in spirit. And it is the spirit which guided so many to do so much.
No the OP didn't indicate agreement with those listed things. I don't believe that those passages in the Bible which support slavery and child labor are actually taught against in spirit. Those concepts certainly are not there in letter.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by iano, posted 11-05-2010 11:51 AM iano has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 105 (590292)
11-07-2010 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
10-29-2010 1:05 PM


Some low hanging fruit...
Others have mentioned Proverbs as a source of wisdom. But some might dismiss Proverbs as simplistic sound bites.
I believe that many of the Old Testament stories contain grains of wisdom for secularists.
For example the story of Samson in Judges 13-16 has plenty to teach that isn't about Sampson's relationship to God.
I'd also suggest that there is more to Job than just lessons regarding devoutness and faithfulness to God. In particular Job's discussions with Zophar, Eliphaz, and Bildad are just as much about Job's relationships with his peers as they are about his relationship with God.
Exodus contains lessons about Moses' successes and failures as a leader that I think would be instructive to secularists even if they don't accept that the miracles described in the Bible happened.
I'm sure others can come up with more passages along this vein. Some might point out that these lessons can be found elsewhere, but I think that's besides the point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 10-29-2010 1:05 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by purpledawn, posted 11-07-2010 5:05 PM NoNukes has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 84 of 105 (590327)
11-07-2010 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by NoNukes
11-07-2010 12:40 PM


Show the Wisdom
quote:
For example the story of Samson in Judges 13-16 has plenty to teach that isn't about Sampson's relationship to God.
Why not actually mention the wisdom you see in the story? As you've noted, not everyone will glean the same lesson.
quote:
I'd also suggest that there is more to Job than just lessons regarding devoutness and faithfulness to God. In particular Job's discussions with Zophar, Eliphaz, and Bildad are just as much about Job's relationships with his peers as they are about his relationship with God.
I feel the story of Job also shows us that bad things don't necessarily happen to people because of sin. People used to feel (some probably still do) that disease was caused by sin. We see a mention of it in the NT in John 9:2.
His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2010 12:40 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2010 5:30 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 86 by Dogmafood, posted 11-07-2010 10:22 PM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 105 (590333)
11-07-2010 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by purpledawn
11-07-2010 5:05 PM


Re: Show the Wisdom
purpledawn writes:
Why not actually mention the wisdom you see in the story? As you've noted, not everyone will glean the same lesson
Because its a short, interesting story, and I didn't want to ruin it by preaching what I see in it.
I think the text speaks for itself. Samson's obvious weaknesses are great allegories for a lot of human failings. That we won't all agree on the lesson is a selling point in my opinion.
quote:
I feel the story of Job also shows us that bad things don't necessarily happen to people because of sin
Yes. The Bible is good for believers too!
Edited by NoNukes, : Spell check

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by purpledawn, posted 11-07-2010 5:05 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by purpledawn, posted 11-08-2010 8:04 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 349 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 86 of 105 (590387)
11-07-2010 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by purpledawn
11-07-2010 5:05 PM


Re: Show the Wisdom
I feel the story of Job also shows us that bad things don't necessarily happen to people because of sin. People used to feel (some probably still do) that disease was caused by sin. We see a mention of it in the NT in John 9:2.
Yeah, the book of Job shows us that we can be good and faithful hardcore believers and still get completely fucked over by a petty, egotistical, child-like God. You notice at the beginning that Satan was just hanging out not bothering anybody when God gets all up in his face about how great he is. God then proceeds to prove his point at Job's obvious expense. I just dont get this.
Taken as a parable I guess it shows us that you should hang in there.
It also shows us that God places a high value on material things.
I was inspired to look up when distillation was invented.
Job 36:28 Which the clouds do drop [and] distil upon man abundantly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by purpledawn, posted 11-07-2010 5:05 PM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2010 11:16 PM Dogmafood has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 105 (590390)
11-07-2010 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Dogmafood
11-07-2010 10:22 PM


Re: Show the Wisdom
Dogmafood writes:
Yeah, the book of Job shows us that we can be good and faithful hardcore believers and still get completely fucked over by a petty, egotistical, child-like God.
I didn't expect that someone who does not believe in God and believes the Bible is fiction would bother getting upset about God's part in the story. I suppose I was wrong about that. Job isn't for everyone.
The point of my recommendation is that Job is a story of the human condition. To get those lessons from Job you only have to accept that Job believes in God even if you don't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Dogmafood, posted 11-07-2010 10:22 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Dogmafood, posted 11-08-2010 7:42 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 349 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 88 of 105 (590427)
11-08-2010 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by NoNukes
11-07-2010 11:16 PM


Re: Show the Wisdom
I suppose the vulgarity is unnecessary.
To get those lessons from Job you only have to accept that Job believes in God even if you don't.
So what is the lesson?
Job 28:28 And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that [is] wisdom; and to depart from evil [is] understanding.
What is our reaction to something that we fear?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2010 11:16 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by NoNukes, posted 11-08-2010 8:43 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 89 of 105 (590432)
11-08-2010 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by NoNukes
11-07-2010 5:30 PM


The Judge Samson
quote:
Because its a short, interesting story, and I didn't want to ruin it by preaching what I see in it.
I think the text speaks for itself. Samson's obvious weaknesses are great allegories for a lot of human failings. That we won't all agree on the lesson is a selling point in my opinion.
I don't really see any good general lessons in the story for today other than don't give in to a nagging woman.
Samson was a womanizer, a violent man, and wasn’t too bright. He got duped by two women and several times by Delilah.
The religious lesson is that God can achieve his goals through people who are less than stellar, not totally righteous. I think that point has been made in other places in the Bible. Overall the point is to show God's leading hand in delivering Israel.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2010 5:30 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by NoNukes, posted 11-08-2010 8:28 AM purpledawn has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 105 (590435)
11-08-2010 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by purpledawn
11-08-2010 8:04 AM


Re: The Judge Samson
purpledawn writes:
I don't really see any good general lessons in the story for today other than don't give in to a nagging woman.
Samson was a womanizer, a violent man, and wasn’t too bright. He got duped by two women and several times by Delilah
That's correct. Do you know any people like Sampson? Do you know anyone with different gifts than Sampson whose failings gets him/her into trouble.
You've pegged the literal meaning and you've gotten to some of the religious meaning, but I think there's more there than that.
The literal meaning of 'The Grasshopper and the Ant' is that grasshoppers are lazy but ants are industrious.
And aren't the religious meanings besides the point here. I agree that for all of the passages that I've cited, the religious meanings of the scriptures are more important than the secular ones. So what?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by purpledawn, posted 11-08-2010 8:04 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by purpledawn, posted 11-08-2010 11:03 AM NoNukes has replied

  
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