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Author Topic:   The Dead Sea Scrolls
Specter
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 39 (213789)
06-03-2005 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by arachnophilia
06-02-2005 12:06 AM


Hebrew Bibles
Arachnophilia writes:
it's also fairly faithful to the dead sea scrolls, and the septuagint, with only slight modifications.
Wait a minute...are you telling me that this is an imperfect version of the Hebrew Bible with modifications? I need to find a good Bible somewhere. And someone take that feuding naked boy off my back!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by arachnophilia, posted 06-02-2005 12:06 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by ramoss, posted 06-03-2005 11:27 AM Specter has not replied
 Message 18 by AdminJar, posted 06-03-2005 12:26 PM Specter has not replied
 Message 20 by arachnophilia, posted 06-04-2005 2:51 AM Specter has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 631 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 17 of 39 (213836)
06-03-2005 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Specter
06-03-2005 7:52 AM


Re: Hebrew Bibles
YOu won't find one. Period. However, the DDS does show up the flaws in even the best copying. It also shows on how texts not only get dropped, but other texts get added over time.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 06-03-2005 12:45 PM ramoss has replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 39 (213866)
06-03-2005 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Specter
06-03-2005 7:52 AM


Spector is suspended.
spector writes:
And someone take that feuding naked boy off my back!
Last straw. You are suspended indefinitely. You can be reinstated by emailing one of the Administrators and convincing them you understand and can follow the guidelines.

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This message is a reply to:
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ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6257 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 19 of 39 (213879)
06-03-2005 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by ramoss
06-03-2005 11:27 AM


Re: Hebrew Bibles
quote:
... the DDS does show up the flaws in even the best copying.
How, precisely?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ramoss, posted 06-03-2005 11:27 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by ramoss, posted 06-04-2005 9:55 AM ConsequentAtheist has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1363 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 20 of 39 (214087)
06-04-2005 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Specter
06-03-2005 7:52 AM


Re: Hebrew Bibles
sorry to hear about the ban. i'll reply anyways, in case you're still reading.
Wait a minute...are you telling me that this is an imperfect version of the Hebrew Bible with modifications?
they all are.
you have one of two choices:
1. a version from the earlier septuagint. basically a translation of a translation.
2. a version from the later masoretic.
since the two don't differ all that much, i tend to go with the one that's still in hebrew. so do most translators. the kjv is from the masoretic, for instance. usually, they take the septuagint into account, however, and footnote the differences. my printed JPS does this.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 631 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 21 of 39 (214134)
06-04-2005 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by ConsequentAtheist
06-03-2005 12:45 PM


Re: Hebrew Bibles
Well, for example, they managed to restore many lost passages. There was one psalm that every verse started with a different letter of the alphabet. The DDS was able to recover about 4 or 5 verses that were lost.
Then, in the story of Samson and Golliath, the height of Golliath was 4 cubits (about 6'4", which was plenty tall when the average height was 5'2"). The new texts had that at 6 cubits (over 9 feet).
Even though the texts that were there recovered I think about 10 percent of passages we didn't have any longer, the books recovered were 15% smaller than their modern equivalents.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 06-03-2005 12:45 PM ConsequentAtheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 06-09-2005 9:31 AM ramoss has replied

  
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6257 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 22 of 39 (215588)
06-09-2005 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by ramoss
06-04-2005 9:55 AM


Re: Hebrew Bibles
quote:
quote:
... the DDS does show up the flaws in even the best copying.
... Then, in the story of Samson and Golliath, the height of Golliath was 4 cubits (about 6'4", which was plenty tall when the average height was 5'2"). The new texts had that at 6 cubits (over 9 feet).
The problem, of course, is that you have zero basis for asserting one or the other as flawed, or for claiming which version was 'original'. It is comforting to suggest that the larger value was an unfortunate embellishment of an earlier and more believable text. One can, perhaps, more reasonably argue that a new oral/written tradition sought to render an old story less preposterous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by ramoss, posted 06-04-2005 9:55 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by ramoss, posted 06-09-2005 11:09 AM ConsequentAtheist has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 631 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 23 of 39 (215608)
06-09-2005 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by ConsequentAtheist
06-09-2005 9:31 AM


Re: Hebrew Bibles
The basis for saying the 6 cubits is an embelshment is that the DDS version is a couple of centuries older. It is an assumption, but does show that there ARE the variatons.. which is the point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 06-09-2005 9:31 AM ConsequentAtheist has not replied

  
loko 
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 39 (230060)
08-05-2005 8:26 AM


If anybody is a follower of Yeshua the Most High God, i suggest him to read the dead sea scrolls.

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Brian, posted 08-05-2005 8:36 AM loko has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4978 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 25 of 39 (230062)
08-05-2005 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by loko
08-05-2005 8:26 AM


Why?
If anybody is a follower of Yeshua the Most High God, i suggest him to read the dead sea scrolls.
Why?
The DDS only contain Old Testament writings, nothing to do with Jesus.
Also, don't you find it upsetting that some of the scrolls were written during and after the time Jesus walked the earth, yet nothing at Qumran even hints at Jesus being anything special.
Oh, finally, when you say "The Most High God", are you claiming that to be a polytheist?
Cheers.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by loko, posted 08-05-2005 8:26 AM loko has not replied

  
loko 
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 39 (230063)
08-05-2005 8:43 AM


the dead sea scrolls explain what this reality is all about, the church has obscured many things that our ancients knew well. There is a fight between light and darkness inside of us.

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by CK, posted 08-05-2005 8:49 AM loko has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4146 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 27 of 39 (230068)
08-05-2005 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by loko
08-05-2005 8:43 AM


What specifically in the DDS suggest that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by loko, posted 08-05-2005 8:43 AM loko has not replied

  
loko 
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 39 (230074)
08-05-2005 9:00 AM


13) For the man of understanding, that he may instruct and teach all the sons of light concerning the nature of all the sons of men: (14) all the spirits which they possess, with their distinctive characters; their works, with their classes; and the Visitation in which they are smitten, together with (15) the times when they are blessed.
Prologue: God and Creation
From the God of Knowledge comes all that is and shall be, and before (beings) were, He established all their design. (16) And when they are, they fulfil their task according to their statutes, in accordance with His glorious design, changing nothing within it. In His hand (17) are the laws of all (beings) and He upholds them in all their needs. It is He who made man that he might rule (18) over the earth. And He allotted unto man two Spirits that he should walk in them until the time of His Visitation; they are the Spirits (19) of truth and perversity.
ORIGIN OF THE SPIRITS OF TRUTH AND PERVERSITY
The ORIGIN of Truth is in a fountain of light, and the ORIGIN of Perversity is from a fountain of darkness. (20) Dominion over all the sons or righteousness is in the hand of the Prince of light; they walk in the ways of light [+I]. All dominion over the sons of perversity is in the hand of the Angel of (21) darkness; they walk in the ways of darkness [-I]. And because of the Angel of darkness (22) all the sons or righteousness go astray; and all their sin and iniquities and faults, and all the rebellion of their deeds, are because of his dominion, (23) according to the Mysteries of God until the end appointed by Him. And all the blows that smite them, (and) all the times of their distress, are because of the dominion of his malevolence. (24) And all the spirits of his lot cause the sons of light to stumble [-J]; but the God of Israel and His Angel of truth succour all (25) the sons of light [+J].
Truly, the Spirits of light and darkness were made by Him; upon these (spirits) He has founded every work, (26) upon their [counsels] every service, and upon their ways [every Visit]ation. The one, God loves [IV] (1) everlastingly, and delights in all his deeds for ever, but the counsel of the other He loathes, and He hates all his ways for every) And these are the ways of these (Spirits) in the world. It is to enlighten the heart of man, and to level before him the ways of true righteousness, and to set fear in his heart of the judgment (3) of God. And (to it belong) the spirit of humility and forbearance, of abundant mercy and eternal goodness, of understanding and intelligence, and almighty wisdom with faith in all (4) the works of God and trust in His abundant grace, and the spirit of knowledge in every design and zeal for just ordinances, and holy resolution (5) with firm inclination and abundant affection towards all the sons of truth, and glorious purification from hatred of all the idols of defilement, and modesty (6) with universal prudence, and discretion concerning the truth of the Mysteries of Knowledge. Such are the counsels of the Spirit to the sons of truth in the world.
And as for the Visitation of all who walk in this (Spirit) [+K], it consists of healing (7) and abundance of bliss, with length of days and fruitfulness, and all blessings without end, and eternal joy in perpetual life, and the glorious crown (8) and garment of honour in everlasting light.
THE SPIRIT OF PERVERSITY IN HUMAN BEINGS: EFFECTS AND PUNISHMENT
(9) But the Spirit of perversity belong cupidity, and slackness in the service of righteousness, impiety and falsehood, pride and haughtiness, falsity and deceit, cruelty (10) and abundant wickedness, impatience and much folly, and burning insolence, (and) abominable deeds committed in the spirit of lust, and the ways of defilement in the service of impurity, (11 ) and a blaspheming tongue, blindness of eye and hardness of ear, stiffness of neck and heaviness of heart causing a man to walk in all the ways of darkness [-K], and malignant cunning.
And as for the Visitation (12) of all who walk in this (Spirit) [-K], it consists of an abundance of blows administered by all the Angels of destruction in the everlasting Pit by the furious wrath of the God of vengeance, of unending dread and shame (13) without end, and of the disgrace of destruction by the fire of the regions of darkness. And all their times from age to age are in most sorrowful chagrin and bitterest misfortune, in calamities of darkness till (14) they-are destroyed with none of them surviving or escaping.
(15) In These (two Spirits) walk the generations of ail the sons of men, and into their (two) divisions all their hosts are divided from age to age. They walk in their (two) ways; and all the reward (16) of their works is by their (two) classes, according to the share of each, according to whether he has much or little, throughout the ages. For God has allotted these (two Spirits) in equal parts until the (17) final end, and has set between their divisions eternal hatred. An abomination to Truth are the deeds of Perversity, and an abomination to Perversity are all the ways of Truth. And a fighting (18) ardour (sets one against the other) on the subject of all their ordinances, for they walk not together.
But in His Mysteries of understanding and in His glorious Wisdom God has set an end for the existence of Perversity; and at the time (19) of the Visitation He will destroy it for ever. Then Truth shall arise in the world for ever; for (the world) has defiled itself in the ways of wickedness by the Spirit of holiness; and He will cause the Spirit of Truth to gush forth upon him like lustral water. All lying abominations shall come to an end, (and) defilement (22) by the Spirit of defilement. The just will comprehend the Knowledge of the Most High, and the perfect of way will have understanding of the wisdom of the sons of Heaven. For God has chosen them for an everlasting Covenant (23) and all the glory of the Man is theirs. Perversity will exist no more: shame upon all the works of deceit!

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 08-05-2005 9:17 AM loko has not replied
 Message 30 by Brian, posted 08-05-2005 9:18 AM loko has not replied

  
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6257 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 29 of 39 (230077)
08-05-2005 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by loko
08-05-2005 9:00 AM


quote:
13) For the man of understanding, ...
  —loko
Quoting, without proper attribution, The Rule of the Community of an obscure sect of 2nd Temple Period Judaism proves only that you are willing to plagiarize.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by loko, posted 08-05-2005 9:00 AM loko has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Brian, posted 08-05-2005 9:19 AM ConsequentAtheist has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4978 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 30 of 39 (230078)
08-05-2005 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by loko
08-05-2005 9:00 AM


Citing
You really should cite your source, it is the polite thing to do.
Cut and paste job

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by loko, posted 08-05-2005 9:00 AM loko has not replied

  
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