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Author | Topic: Evolution for Dummies and Christians | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Well, as far as I'm concerned my reply does answer all your other questions.
what would you accept as evidence in the diffrence between training a dog and instructing a child? Some indication that the process and results are different. But they aren't. The process of negative reinforcement is the same; and we know from studies of primates and other creatures that game theory more or less predicts the same "moral" outcomes among most species. Humans cooperate, but the also cheat. They follow the rules but break them when the advantage is clear. That doesn't indicate, to me, the presence of some kind of universal "moral law"; the fact that other extremely social animals form roughly the same sorts of ethics structures further confirms in my mind the entirely prosaic origin of human moral behavior.
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akldema Inactive Junior Member |
how do you know that the process of negative reinforcement is the same? did you conduct these studies how do you know they are true?
what do you mean by moral law? moral law could mean instinct since your saying that its universal wouldnt instinct then be put under the category of universal moral law? and what of other types of animals? if we all evolved from something how come we are not all extremely social animals? and what diffrence does it make that it is confirmed in your mind the entirely prosaic origin of human moral behavior. if theres no right or wrong then why are we debating? akldema
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
how do you know that the process of negative reinforcement is the same? What would lead me to conclude that they are different, other than an a priori assumption, based on no evidence, that humans and animals have fundamentally different brains?
moral law could mean instinct since your saying that its universal wouldnt instinct then be put under the category of universal moral law? Not even animals operate entirely from instinct. And humans don't appear to have any instinctual moral behaviors, just socially-imparted ones. Allow me to direct you towards research on so-called "feral children", humans who developed without benefit of human society.
if we all evolved from something how come we are not all extremely social animals? How does that make any sense? Evolution explains the development of novel features - like social behavior - it doesn't mandate that all species be identical.
if theres no right or wrong then why are we debating? Who said there's no right or wrong? Just because right and wrong aren't determined by a big sky man or some universal moral law, doesn't mean that they don't exist or aren't valid concepts to describe behaviors that are advantageous for human society as a whole.
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RoyLennigan Inactive Member |
quote:don't be naive. evolution and creationism are merely concepts attempting to explain the world around us. instinct is just basic thought that causes us to do what we do. more complex actions that arise from more complex situations require more complex thinking, therefore throwing the conscious thought into the mix. But there will always be basic instincts 'persuading' judgement and action. Freud explains the human mind as having three layers, the Id, the Ego and the Superego. Here is an excerpt from wikipedia:"The Id... represented primary process thinking ” our most primitive need gratification type thoughts. The Superego... represented our conscience and counteracted the Id with moral and ethical thoughts. Freud based the term Id on the work of Georg Groddeck. The Ego stands in between both to balance our primitive needs and our moral/ethical beliefs. A healthy ego provides the ability to adapt to reality and interact with the outside world in a way that accommodates both Id and Superego." Sigmund Freud - Wikipedia quote:Instinctual desires. like the desire to eat, to sleep, to have sex, to learn from those older than you, to live with other people, anything people have been doing without language or civilization. morality is a common, extremely emotionally tied instinct that arises from the need for humans (and many other animals) to live together in a group. over time, emotions have developed because they cause us to act a certain way. morality is a dominant human characteristic because humans had to band together to survive. It is therefore obvious that because they survived, morality is an extremely dominant instinct. everyone has morals, to an extent. the reason everyone has different ideals about morals is because we're all genetically different. instincts do have good and bad consequences. rape is a big consequence of instinct. it is instinctual to have sex and that instinct is very overpowering for the less educated. a moth flying towards a flame isn't a good example to explain your position. humans are much more complex and are able to rationalize that fire is harmful. if we did not know what fire was, many people would touch it or jump right in, but would quickly find out (instinctually) that it is harmful and then never do it again. the ability to discern between a flower and fire has nothing to do with instinct. what if i am wrong about these instincual desires? what if you're wrong about a devine creator? i may well be wrong, but i'd be wrong along with millions of the smartest minds on the planet. i see no reason why instincts would be evidence of a devine creator.
quote:no, no, you're not getting the point. right and wrong are just aspects of morality. morality is just an instinct that acts on experience in a society. you are born with simple concepts of morality which are imprinted by the society you live in. the concepts of right and wrong hold no value outside of the human mind (or similar mind). a hurricane kills thousands of people but you don't call it evil and vow revenge. it is a force of nature. what hitler did is wrong in the sense that the majority of the human population is against it, yet all those germans in the nazi army gladly went off to war for the promise of the 3rd reich. do you believe that the nazi soliers were evil? do you think hitler was a servant of satan? no. the soldiers were ignorant of the truth of the matter, and just wanted to be a part of something important. many american kids would have done just the same in a similar position. hitler was just a social genius with a psychological problem. abortion is another matter completely but i'm not gonna bring it up in this thread.
quote:a baby knows nothing when it is born, besides instinct. it will piss and crap wherever it pleases. it will communicate in simple tones. don't you ever remember being punished as a kid? it acts the same way as when you punish a puppy. you're right, its not instinct, its learning. its memory. babies know they must eat (or drink). they know pain, they know loneliness. they laugh, they cry (a lot). all these things they know how to do without learning a thing. i am certainly not implying that training is instint at all. after time, though the animals born with certain instincts that make them survive better will become more dominant and spread more of their characteristics than any other of its kind. this is how instinct evolves. say we killed all the dogs that didn't quickly learn not to pee on the carpet. if we did this for a million years (or maybe less), we would most likely have a race of dogs that don't pee on carpet.
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b b Member (Idle past 6159 days) Posts: 77 From: baton rouge, La, usa Joined: |
quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by ksc: "One problem John D. Callahan. God says He created in six days and rested on the 7th. God says He formed Adam from the dust then Eve from Adams side. This certainly doesn't sound like evolution to me." One problem John D. Callahan. God says He created in six days and rested on the 7th. God says He formed Adam from the dust then Eve from Adams side. This certainly doesn't sound like evolution to me-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "No, but it does sound like a second rate fiction novel. What independently verified evidence do you have that 'god' said any of these things? None. but your point is? If I shoot you and no one sees it; i still shot you. I wasn't here in the beginning but neither were you. As far as Adam and Eve; a smart argument for evolution is that they could have been cavemen. Anyone have a picture of them? My point is that evolution does not disprove God. The Big Bang does not disprove God. Science has never disproved God. Maybe we're both right.
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b b Member (Idle past 6159 days) Posts: 77 From: baton rouge, La, usa Joined: |
Freud explains the human mind as having three layers, the Id, the Ego and the Superego.
I doubt Freud is the creator of life, so I think I'll take my chances believing God instead of Freud. If I'm wrong I die and nothing happens. If you are wrong and you die what happens to you? Dress for the heat.
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nator Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Yeah, but everybody knows that Freud was full of crap about almost everything. You'd be better off using science-based explanations for behavior, I think.
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nator Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
So, what's the deal with your username, and how do you think God likes it?
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nator Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Or, you are wrong and you take several steps backwards in your path towards Nirvana, reincarnated as a Somali beggar, or perhaps a poor woman who is beaten to death by her husband.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
the later would be too quick and the lesson too short.
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truthlover Member (Idle past 4087 days) Posts: 1548 From: Selmer, TN Joined: |
For primitive peoples, the moon is the most readily available clock and 7, 14, 21, 28 is a handy way to break it up with visible clues. Excuse me for continuing to address an off topic point, but have you ever tried to use a week this way? When we moved onto our land five years ago, the outdoors was our living room, because we didn't have houses yet. (We lived in RV's, buses, tents, storage containers, etc.) Where the moon was each night mattered, but those weeks provide no visible clues at all. Since the lunar month is just over 29 days, your week has different visible clues by over a day every month. I do agree that somehow the week probably has something to do with the lunar cycle, but it needs at least as much adjustment as the months do to make up a year. The "visible clues," in my opinion, were not very "handy" at all. In the greater scheme of things, this is not a very important point, but having spent several months rather enjoying learning a visible calendar in the sky, I couldn't resist commenting.
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9004 From: Canada Joined: |
Since the lunar month is just over 29 days, your week has different visible clues by over a day every month. I don't know anything for real here but..... (hasn't stopped me before has it ) Notice that 29 is prime so there can't be a really good match to work with the lunar month. However, as you learned it is an important period of time. It seems to me entirely possible that originally we weren't so tied to exactly a 7 day week after a 7 day week. I can imagine people's restarting a period of 4 seven day weeks with each lunar month thus keeping it mostly in sync. This message has been edited by NosyNed, 09-25-2005 10:08 AM
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
just some observations.
first from http://www.hermit.org/Eclipse/why_months.html
The time it takes for the Moon to go from one New Moon to the next is called a Synodic Month, and is 29.530589 days on average. Because the orbits of the Earth and Moon aren't circular, and hence the two bodies don't move at a constant speed, the actual time between lunations may range from about 29.27 to about 29.83 days. I thought the old roman calendar was based on 15 day periods (ie "ides" and fortnights) before the 7 day version, but haven't checked that. Rounding down to 29 creates problems (as Jar points out: prime) but rounding up to 30 gives several possibilities. Look into jewish calendars if you want to see how complicated things can get with trying to resolve lunar months with solar years. And I agree: we are totally off topic. Enjoy. by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I don't think I was the one that pointed out that 29 was Prime, the other issue of resetting calendars was very common.
IMHO it was this magic, this ability to reset the calendar to bring it in accord with observations that first led to the creation of a Priestly Cast and likely to the belief that priests had power with the Gods. But we certainly have wandered far afield from anything related to Evolution for Dummies and Christians. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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RoyLennigan Inactive Member |
This is heading off topic (or has been for awhile) -- please do not respond here quote:i doubt you were the creator of life, what gives you any more credibility? god has no proven connection to us, so how can you believe "what he says"? If i am wrong and i die, i go to purgatory, in your beliefs. if you are wrong and you die, you have been a detriment to the evolution of man, especially if you have passed your genes and parenting on to the next generation. This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 09-26-2005 02:27 AM
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