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Author Topic:   Why God uses faith
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 76 of 145 (291183)
03-01-2006 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Faith
03-01-2006 2:33 AM


The story of Tommie
Well, the subject of our discussion happens to be limited at the moment to Thomas' refusing to believe Jesus had risen from the dead unless he saw the physical proof of it. And far from it not being important, scripture tells us that we MUST believe He rose from the dead.
To belong to the club called Christians, we must believe that Jesus rose from the dead; it's in the club charter. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the message that Jesus brought. To be a follower of Jesus' message instead of simply another member of the club, does not require belief in Jesus resurrection or even that he lived.
Jesus resurrection, and his laugh and love when Thomas questioned it, is but an act of comfort. It can also be a comfortable story when recounted to others and an assurance to those who believe it happened.
But it is not that important, nor is it the main point being taught by the New Testament. Jesus' death is not the message. Jesus' life is the message.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 66 by Faith, posted 03-01-2006 2:33 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 77 of 145 (291188)
03-01-2006 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Darkmatic
03-01-2006 8:42 AM


Re: Faith No more .
Now , according to God believers , God made me this way , therefore he condemned me to hell the moment i was born .
Yes, some people, God believers using your term, do feel that way. But to do that they also have to deny what is written in their own Bible.
Thomas was much like you. He could not believe what he could not verify. When he told Jesus that he needed proof, Jesus din't say "if you need verification you are damned", he said "Okay Tom, come here. Feel my hands, stick your fingers in the hole in my side."
None of the original appostles believed in the resurection without proof. Each and every one of them got to meet with Jesus again, sit down with him, have some bread (with olive oil and garlic) and some wine, share some dates, olives and grapes (and maybe some cheese as well, for blessed are the cheesemakers), and get actual confirmation that yes, this dude that they knew, had watched being crucified, really was once more alive and with them.
The need to believe without verification only came up later, after Jesus' ascension. That is when it became necessary for there to be faith that Jesus was still with us even though gone. But even there, according to the Bible, there would be tangible evidence; they would be granted special powers that they did not have before.
A belief that you are damned to hell just because you are not able to believe something without evidence is not really the message of Christianity, but rather a perversion of the message that Jesus brought. True, there are many Christians that do hold to that message, but it's not one that is supported by the Bible, the Creeds or even common sense.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 78 of 145 (291202)
03-01-2006 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by jar
03-01-2006 10:57 AM


Re: Faith No more .
Faith writes:
Well, the subject of our discussion happens to be limited at the moment to Thomas' refusing to believe Jesus had risen from the dead unless he saw the physical proof of it. And far from it not being important, scripture tells us that we MUST believe He rose from the dead.
So a skeptic would never make it? A skeptic with good works (altruistic and not selfishly expecting a reward) versus a Believer who trusts that God died and rose from the Dead for Him...yet who may still lead a materialist, mundane life....Do we know which one God favors, if any?
Faith writes:
Of course, there's much more to the Christian life that follows from that. We must also believe many other things and live it all too.
So we must believe and live appropriately to make it? What about Grace?
jar writes:
But it is not that important, nor is it the main point being taught by the New Testament. Jesus' death is not the message. Jesus' life is the message.
But I would argue that Jesus STILL being alive and having conquered death IS important...otherwise we just have another "pay it forward" philosophy club of altruistic humanists!
jar writes:
A belief that you are damned to hell just because you are not able to believe something without evidence is not really the message of Christianity, but rather a perversion of the message that Jesus brought. True, there are many Christians that do hold to that message, but it's not one that is supported by the Bible, the Creeds or even common sense.
Well...I DO believe that God allows many, many mulligans!

Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 79 of 145 (291219)
03-01-2006 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by ringo
03-01-2006 10:07 AM


Re: Our dependence on witnesses
... scripture tells us that we MUST believe He rose from the dead.
That's a whole other topic. For the purpose of this topic, the resurrection is irrelevant.
Not at all. The subject is why God uses faith and Thomas' refusal to believe without evidence, meaning believe unto faith, faith in the witness testimony, faith in Christ too on account of that, is right on topic.
This is absolutely on the topic. Faith is first in the preached gospel. And the witness of lives is important, also, but it is the gospel you must believe. I believed without running into a single living Christian. And WHAT I believed is that Jesus died on the cross for sinners and rose from the dead and ascended into heaven for sinners.
Lots of people live nice clean lives. Mormons often make wonderful witnesses as far as their nice clean friendly helpful and compassionate lives go. But unfortunately they witness to a false gospel that won't save anybody. There's a limit to the value of personal witness.
If I were willing to die for you maybe then you'd believe? I'm called to do that if God puts me in that position.
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-01-2006 01:47 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 80 of 145 (291222)
03-01-2006 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
03-01-2006 12:26 PM


Re: Faith No more .
Well, the subject of our discussion happens to be limited at the moment to Thomas' refusing to believe Jesus had risen from the dead unless he saw the physical proof of it. And far from it not being important, scripture tells us that we MUST believe He rose from the dead.
So a skeptic would never make it? A skeptic with good works (altruistic and not selfishly expecting a reward) versus a Believer who trusts that God died and rose from the Dead for Him...yet who may still lead a materialist, mundane life....Do we know which one God favors, if any?
A true believer will no longer lead a materialist life, by definition.
Many a skeptic has been saved. I was one. I was rather aggressive about it too at one time. But you can't remain a skeptic ABOUT THE RESURRECTION and be saved.
Faith writes:
Of course, there's much more to the Christian life that follows from that. We must also believe many other things and live it all too.
So we must believe and live appropriately to make it? What about Grace?
Grace enables us to do all of it. It's all through the power of God, all though trusting in Him, all through faith you might say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 03-01-2006 12:26 PM Phat has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 81 of 145 (291230)
03-01-2006 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Faith
03-01-2006 9:58 AM


Re: Our dependence on witnesses
quote:
Of course, but the New Testament has been given for this very purpose, to persuade her, and wanting other evidence, which may not exist, is just going to leave her as an unbeliever.
But we have to find a truthful interpretation on which to base our belief.
Only God knows what any one person needs and when. Timing is everything. If they aren't ready, it may not stick.
Maybe those who believe without seeing are considered fortunate because they will enjoy God's presence sooner than those who continue to seek. But seeking is allowed.
quote:
At the very least Jesus was certainly telling us in the Thomas episode that we are to believe His witnesses.
I disagree, but that's just me.
quote:
Our job is to figure out what he meant, not argue with Him.
I'm not arguing with him, I'm disagreeing with you. I have no problem with what the parable means.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 82 of 145 (291243)
03-01-2006 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
03-01-2006 1:38 PM


Re: Our dependence on witnesses
Faith writes:
The subject is why God uses faith and Thomas' refusal to believe without evidence, meaning believe unto faith, faith in the witness testimony, faith in Christ too on account of that, is right on topic.
Sorry, I have absolutely no idea what you're flailing at there.
And the witness of lives is important, also, but it is the gospel you must believe.
The witness of lives is the gospel.
I believed without running into a single living Christian.
Sorry again, but I find that hard to... believe. Where were you living? On Mars?
And WHAT I believed is that Jesus died on the cross for sinners and rose from the dead and ascended into heaven for sinners.
And what I believe is what Jesus said:
quote:
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Whether He lived or died after that has no bearing on the message.
Mormons often make wonderful witnesses as far as their nice clean friendly helpful and compassionate lives go. But unfortunately they witness to a false gospel that won't save anybody.
On the other hand, I would say that it is your false "gospel" that won't save anybody. (You are aware, of course, that "gospel" means "good news". What's "good" about telling people they'll go to hell if they don't believe the same thing you do?)
There's a limit to the value of personal witness.
No, there isn't. There really isn't.
If I were willing to die for you maybe then you'd believe?
Believe what you belive? Not a chance. There's no going back to the darkness.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 03-01-2006 1:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 03-01-2006 3:18 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 83 of 145 (291263)
03-01-2006 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by ringo
03-01-2006 2:28 PM


Re: Our dependence on witnesses
Do you consider yourself a Christian?
Would you, just for the record, please write out in detail, just what you hate/think false about my beliefs and my being a bad witness? Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ringo, posted 03-01-2006 2:28 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 84 of 145 (291278)
03-01-2006 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
03-01-2006 12:26 PM


Re: Faith No more .
So a skeptic would never make it? A skeptic with good works (altruistic and not selfishly expecting a reward) versus a Believer who trusts that God died and rose from the Dead for Him...yet who may still lead a materialist, mundane life....Do we know which one God favors, if any?
Well, just to compare and contrast. In Judaism, both 'sin' and 'righeousness' is based on ACTIONS, not on belief. There is a story of someone who was NOT Jewish that , because of his actions showed he was righteous, and therefore was allowed to preform the sacrifice of the Red Heifer for the temple.
Since Sin is an ACTION, and not a STATE, babys are born as blank slates, with no inherited sin. Therefore, there is no 'original sin', there is no 'fall' as Christians see it, and there is no need for 'salvation', as defined by the CHristian religion.
Christianity has a debate within it about 'works' vs "faith". This debate does not exist in Judaism.
Since both 'sin' and 'righeousness' are based on actions, there is no 'grace'. So, when it comes to the Jewish religion, it is not FAITH that matters, it is ACTIONS.

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 85 of 145 (291279)
03-01-2006 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Faith
03-01-2006 3:18 PM


Re: Our dependence on witnesses
Do you consider yourself a Christian?
That would definitely be a different topic. If you and the administration can agree on an OP, I will gladly tell you anything you want to know about my personal beliefs.
Until then, everybody is free to draw their own conclusions.
Would you, just for the record, please write out in detail, just what you hate/think false about my beliefs and my being a bad witness?
What is false is the belief that you are part of an exclusive club. Jesus made it very clear how the sheep will be separated from the goats, and that separation is based solely on actions, not on beliefs.
As for being a good witness, I have already touched on that: if you're going to spread the good news, then the news that you spread ought to be good. If a door-to-door salesman promised you a vaccuum cleaner and delivered a set of encylopedias, you wouldn't trust him, would you?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 86 of 145 (291281)
03-01-2006 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by ringo
03-01-2006 3:40 PM


Amen: Preach the Gospel Brother.
What is false is the belief that you are part of an exclusive club. Jesus made it very clear how the sheep will be separated from the goats, and that separation is based solely on actions, not on beliefs.
So important. When Jesus was upset about the Sadducees and Pharisees it had nothing to do with their beliefs, but their behavior.
As for being a good witness, I have already touched on that: if you're going to spread the good news, then the news that you spread ought to be good.
Amen Brother. What you believe is shown by what you do. It's not what you say that is the good news, it's how you behave.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 87 of 145 (291311)
03-01-2006 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by veiledvirtue
03-01-2006 1:07 AM


Re: Thomas not Inferior
im a quick learner.
it doesnt take me long to look beyond the mustache
clearly.

This message is a reply to:
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veiledvirtue
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 145 (291360)
03-02-2006 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by jar
03-01-2006 3:46 PM


Re: Amen: Preach the Gospel Brother.
quote:
What you believe is shown by what you do. It's not what you say that is the good news, it's how you behave.
i think its also important to note that the 'good things' you say and do are synonymous with a well oiled machine.
if the heart and mind arnt in-line than you usually get yourself into trouble.
There is no escaping it .
now more than ever people have found comfort in greed, money, divorce, a self-centered society that will ultimately fail and come full circle, looking at itself, realizing there are no shortcuts. because debts are paid
ultimately.. common sense will take the back seat
This message has been edited by veiledvirtue, 03-02-2006 12:07 AM
This message has been edited by veiledvirtue, 03-02-2006 12:11 AM

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Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 89 of 145 (291498)
03-02-2006 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Faith
03-01-2006 10:03 AM


Re: Our dependence on witnesses
Faith writes:
Been believable sincere writers. And since I believed them Jesus Himself has proved Himself worthy of my trust, answers prayer, guides me when I need it.
This is the case with historical events. You either trust the witnesses or you don't. There is often no other evidence
I take it then that you trust Homer when he says that the gods Athena and Apollo often spoke to the warriors, or that Achilles was invulnerable apart from his heel.
You should also trust Herodotus when he talks of Gryphons (creatures that were half eagles, half lions)
I also take it you trust Joseph Smith when he said the angel gave him the golden plates (there is signed testimony by eight witnesses to this)
After all, all the above are believable sincere writers and there is often no other evidence about what they're saying.
Anything else would be double standards now, wouldn't it ?

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 03-01-2006 10:03 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 03-02-2006 1:29 PM Legend has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 90 of 145 (291500)
03-02-2006 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Legend
03-02-2006 1:17 PM


Re: Our dependence on witnesses
There are other criteria besides sincerity. I'm not familiar enough with Homer to know whether he presents his writing as fiction or fact but that makes a difference. Or Herodotus. But as a matter of fact I don't have a problem with "gods" or even Gryphons. Strange creatures which are probably demonic are represented in many cultures. I believe someone who told me that a being once appeared to her that was half angel half ugly demon -- like representations in some Eastern religions.
Joseph Smith on the other hand is a known fraud. However, I can believe that an "angel" did appear to him along with all the fraud, a demonic being. Just as I believe it was not the angel Gabriel but a demonic impersonation that appeared to Mohammed.
Edited this a great deal to add thoughts.
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-02-2006 01:36 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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