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Author Topic:   'Intelligent-design' school board ousted in Penn
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 989 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 1 of 69 (258232)
11-09-2005 6:35 PM


'Intelligent-design' school board ousted in Penn
DOVER, Pennsylvania (Reuters) - Voters on Tuesday ousted a Pennsylvania local school board that promoted an "intelligent-design" alternative to teaching evolution, and elected a new slate of candidates who promised to remove the concept from science classes.
The board of Dover Area School District in south-central Pennsylvania lost eight of its nine incumbents in an upset election that surprised even the challengers, who had been hoping for a bare majority to take control of the board.
The new board, which includes teachers, opposed the incumbents' policy of including intelligent design in science classes.
The ousted board was the first school board in the country to implement such a policy. The challengers also criticized what they called arrogance and secrecy by the incumbent board.
For the last six weeks, the teaching of intelligent design has been challenged in federal court by a group of Dover parents. They said the concept is a religious belief and therefore may not be taught in public schools, because the U.S. Constitution forbids it. They also argue that the theory is unscientific and so has no place in science classes.
Bryan Rehm, one of the winning board members and a former teacher at Dover High School, said the new board will hold a public meeting to decide the precise future of the policy. He said intelligent design will no longer be a part of the science curriculum, regardless of how the court rules.
Defeated board members were not immediately available for comment.
Dover residents have been split on the issue of intelligent design since the board adopted the policy in October 2004.
The policy requires that students be read a four-paragraph statement that says there are "gaps" in Charles Darwin's theory of evolution and that students should consider other explanations of the origins of life, including intelligent design.
Intelligent design holds that some aspects of nature are so complex they must be the work of an unnamed designer, rather than the result of random natural selection, as argued by Darwin's theory.
The trial, which attracted national and international media attention, was watched in at least 30 states where policies are being considered that would promote teaching alternatives to evolution theory.
U.S. President George W. Bush, whose re-election was boosted by many Christian-conservative votes, has said he believes intelligent design should be taught alongside evolution.
U.S. District Judge John Jones is expected to rule on the case in December or January.
I wonder if this will happen in Kansas as well in light of the recent approval of anti-evolution public school standards.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by randman, posted 11-09-2005 6:43 PM roxrkool has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 2 of 69 (258235)
11-09-2005 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by roxrkool
11-09-2005 6:35 PM


vpuchers are the solution
We should go to a total voucher system and then there wouldn't be such fights.
NC adopted vouchers within the public school system, called charter schools, but they are essentially run like private schools but funded via vouchers. They work, and helped the other schools be motivated to improve as well.
The testing craze to improve public schools is bad because it really is not a great indicator. For example, my daughter's high school already does very well putting students into top colleges, but they have to improve every year to get an A rating. After so many years, it becomes hard to improve, and the year they didn't, there was all this pressure and teaching to the test, instead of educating imo.
But vouchers let parental choice become a factor driving competition, and imo, that's a better approach.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by roxrkool, posted 11-09-2005 6:35 PM roxrkool has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3 of 69 (258249)
11-09-2005 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by randman
11-09-2005 6:43 PM


Re: vouchers are NOT the solution
We should go to a total voucher system and then there wouldn't be such fights.
How would vouchers stop someone from being an absolute ignorant fool and asserting that they can redefine what science is? What'll they redefine next ... pi???
The problem is not with the schools, but those who think they can redefine knowledge, who think they know more from their vantage point of ignorance than professionals in the various fields of science, or who think because they survived high school they can develop a valid school curriculum.
They are the ones that create the fights that waste the time of schools and kids, and try the patience of reasonable people who have to fix up the messy aftermath.
Stop interfering with school and see if you still need vouchers to provide an education.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 989 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 4 of 69 (258486)
11-10-2005 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by randman
11-09-2005 6:43 PM


Re: vpuchers are the solution
Vouchers haven't been very successful as far as I've seen. And I agree with RAZD, what's to stop parents at a charter school from doing the same thing? In fact, wouldn't it be much easier to screw around with educational standards in a charter school?
I think if you want your child to learn religion (not about religion), then put your child in a religious school. Leave public schools secular. I don't see what is so hard about that.
I know here in Colorado, we had problems with the voucher program with the religous-leaning charte schools kicked out gay students and students with gay parents. The state should not be supporting discriminatory actions by its schools. Colorado ended up revoking that schools voucher status.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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wiseman45
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 69 (258700)
11-10-2005 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by roxrkool
11-10-2005 12:50 PM


Re: vpuchers are the solution
Hmm...as for charter schools, who are independent and private and therefore in most cases you have to pay to go there at least a little bit other than standard residential taxes which cover public schools, what's wrong with them teaching whatever they want to teach? As long as it stays in private schools, who cares if they think that the world was created in 6 days? Who cares what they teach? Its not like the students who are learning it have no choice if they want a biology grade. My main peeve is forcing religious ideas into a normally mandatory public school course: biology/life science. How about it, folks? Yay or Nay?
And as for you, roxrkool, I'd have to say that it'll be a roll of the dice as to who gets elected in the next Kansas Board o' Ed elections. To stabilize the board and prevent further change, all that is needed is for one board member to lose their seat to a moderate. To reverese the changes, 2 need to go. Will that happen? I hope so. I really do. But it looks like we may have to settle for a complete division. Oh well, it looks like that's better than nothing, although when you have a division things can switch either way in the next few elections. The people of Kansas have chosen that they want to make their state the laughing stock of every educated person in the country. Now that the board members have completed and fufilled their election promises, who says that they'll be thrown out? I don't know about my state's future, and I don't know anyone who could.
This message has been edited by wiseman45, 11-10-2005 09:34 PM

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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 6 of 69 (258715)
11-10-2005 10:15 PM


Robertson chimes in...
link
Pat Robertson Warns Pa. Town of Disaster
VIRGINIA BEACH, Va. - Religious broadcaster Pat Robertson warned residents of a rural Pennsylvania town Thursday that disaster may strike there because they "voted God out of your city" by ousting school board members who favored teaching intelligent design.
All eight Dover, Pa., school board members up for re-election were defeated Tuesday after trying to introduce "intelligent design" ” the belief that the universe is so complex that it must have been created by a higher power ” as an alternative to the theory of evolution.
"I'd like to say to the good citizens of Dover: If there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to God. You just rejected him from your city," Robertson said on the Christian Broadcasting Network's "700 Club."
Eight families had sued the district, claiming the policy violates the constitutional separation of church and state. The federal trial concluded days before Tuesday's election, but no ruling has been issued.
Later Thursday, Robertson issued a statement saying he was simply trying to point out that "our spiritual actions have consequences."
"God is tolerant and loving, but we can't keep sticking our finger in his eye forever," Robertson said. "If they have future problems in Dover, I recommend they call on Charles Darwin. Maybe he can help them."
Robertson made headlines this summer when he called on his daily show for the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.
In October 2003, he suggested that the State Department be blown up with a nuclear device. He has also said that feminism encourages women to "kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians."

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by crashfrog, posted 11-10-2005 10:22 PM nator has not replied
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 7 of 69 (258717)
11-10-2005 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by nator
11-10-2005 10:15 PM


Re: Robertson chimes in...
And this guy has unofficial veto power over the President's Supreme Court picks?
Ok, ok. My bad. Let's not turn this into another "Robertson is a prick" thread. But he pretty much is a total prick.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by nator, posted 11-10-2005 10:15 PM nator has not replied

be LIE ve
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 69 (258757)
11-11-2005 1:11 AM


his whole "comply or die" kinda deal is going to piss alot of people off. which it should. he sure puts himself above the rest of us if he can read the intentions of god. last week in the news i saw a segment on how people thought america would receive the wrath of god due to our presence in iraq. now this guy says that that town will get "the wrath" (i like to call it that) because they're trying to stick to the constitution. looks like terrorists and robertson are on the same wicked cool band wagon. sounds like a cool guy.... to punch in the face.

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 9 of 69 (258770)
11-11-2005 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by nator
11-10-2005 10:15 PM


Robertson's Blunder
Hasn't mr. Robertson done the Intelligent Design movement a huge disservice by so openly equating the intelligent designer with the God of Christianity?
I thought the ID-ers always insisted that it's not necessarily the Christian God they're talking about. It could be aliens or the Mud god of Swampia. After all, to circumvent the principle of separation of church and state, they have to deny religious motives behind their postulate. That's why they are deliberately vague about the nature of their intelligent designer. There is of course the Wedge Strategy, laid out in a document of the Discovery Institute, in which the Christian creationist agenda is explained quite explicitly, but ID-ers don't like to talk about it and pretend we haven't seen it. Well, if that's their attitude, I don't think they'll be pleased with mr. Robertson's fulminations.
On second thought, maybe the are pleased with it. If they are so intellectually blinded that they cannot see the scientific ramifications of Intelligent Design "theory", then they probably won't see the consequences of this latest blunder either.
This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 11-Nov-2005 08:41 AM

"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." - Richard Dawkins

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 10 of 69 (258790)
11-11-2005 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by wiseman45
11-10-2005 9:25 PM


Re: vpuchers are the solution
The point is that by switching to a voucher system, public money will be drained to religious private schools which can teach anything they want. If a large percentage of the population decides they want full religious instruction as part of their public education, then suddenly public secular schools get the financial rug pulled out from under them.
It will be a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy, where religion becomes public education because that is where the money goes, when it used to be directed at secular education.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 11 of 69 (258791)
11-11-2005 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Parasomnium
11-11-2005 3:21 AM


Re: Robertson's Blunder
Hasn't mr. Robertson done the Intelligent Design movement a huge disservice by so openly equating the intelligent designer with the God of Christianity?
Heheheh... that is EXACTLY what I was going to say today if no one had started a thread on his blunder.
It seems to me now that anyone can bring up the fact that it ID is being touted as directly related to religion by a patently religious figure, and more than that a statement is being made that if one chooses not to accept ID then one is rejecting God. He didn't say "or space aliens that created us might descend with blasters".
This cuts every which way. It even shows religious intimidation by religious groups to change secular education.
It seems to me ID theorists will now have to come out against Robertson, or it will be open for use against them in courts. Then again if courts are packed with fundies or fundie apologists, a powerplay negates any logical argument on this subject.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 12 of 69 (258794)
11-11-2005 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by nator
11-10-2005 10:15 PM


Re: Robertson chimes in...
schrafinator writes:
"I'd like to say to the good citizens of Dover: If there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to God. You just rejected him from your city," Robertson said on the Christian Broadcasting Network's "700 Club."
I almost wish I could believe in a just and wrathful God, just long enough to savor the notion of Robertson in His hands...but I would settle for a totally random meteor strike.
The testimony at the recent ID trial pretty much exploded the "no implication of religion" argument. It was fascinating to watch that parade of pious zealots lie about their previous statement and actions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by nator, posted 11-10-2005 10:15 PM nator has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 13 of 69 (258795)
11-11-2005 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Parasomnium
11-11-2005 3:21 AM


Re: Robertson's Blunder
quote:
Hasn't mr. Robertson done the Intelligent Design movement a huge disservice by so openly equating the intelligent designer with the God of Christianity?
Not really - not when we have statements from people who are signficant in the ID movement who say much the same thing.
If the ID movement was publically willing to disavow Robertson's statement then it would be far less damaging than other aspects of the Dover case.
To my mind, the biggest hit was the revelation that the ID textbook Of Pandas and People is a rewritten creationist textbook - where the rewrite was so superficial that the defintion of "Intelligent Design" is the same as the definition of "Creationism" in earlier drafts.

This message is a reply to:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 14 of 69 (258796)
11-11-2005 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by randman
11-09-2005 6:43 PM


Re: vpuchers are the solution
randman writes:
The testing craze to improve public schools is bad because it really is not a great indicator. For example, my daughter's high school already does very well putting students into top colleges, but they have to improve every year to get an A rating. After so many years, it becomes hard to improve, and the year they didn't, there was all this pressure and teaching to the test, instead of educating imo.
At last, randman, something we can agree on, though we find different consequences objectionable.
Your daughter was discomfitted by too many tests; students in already poorly funded inner city schools become even more poorly educated because those schools, strangely, can't improve despite the loss of funding. The presence of voucher schools would only compound the problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by randman, posted 11-09-2005 6:43 PM randman has replied

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 15 of 69 (258848)
11-11-2005 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Silent H
11-11-2005 8:10 AM


Re: vpuchers are the solution
Holmes, that's incorrect. Vouchers don't pull money out from public schools, but add money back to the schools.
Here is why.
Vouchers are generally less than what the public schools spends per student. So what happens is the state can spend less per student for the kids that take vouchers, leaving more money per student for the kids left in public school.
All the propaganda in the world does not change that fact.
Now, if so many students leave public schools that they are not necessary because everyone chooses private schools, that's a win/win situation as well, but it is doubtful that will happen.
The head of the NEA a few years back was asked if they would accept vouchers if spending in public schools was increased, even doubled, and the response was no. Their stance, and the propaganda you believe, is not about helping educate kids but about maintaining control and a strong union being politically active for the democrats. It's just politics over education.

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Replies to this message:
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