Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   castor oil packs-real treatment or quackery?
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 16 of 97 (366056)
11-26-2006 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by purpledawn
11-26-2006 11:24 AM


Re: Castor Oil Packs
quote:
I notice that most of what anyone has found on the internet pretty much says that Castor Oil Packs have not been researched enough to know exactly how they work.
...or if they work at all.
I am not sure why you persist in using the wording "how they work" when describing castor oil packs.
Why do you make the assumption that they have any effect whatsoever?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by purpledawn, posted 11-26-2006 11:24 AM purpledawn has not replied

U can call me Cookie
Member (Idle past 4953 days)
Posts: 228
From: jo'burg, RSA
Joined: 11-15-2005


Message 17 of 97 (366479)
11-28-2006 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
11-23-2006 7:57 AM


what I know of castor oil, is anecdotal.
It's an extremely effective and extremely foul tasting laxative.
a tblsp was enough to make you "go" for the whole day.
i know this, because i spent many moments running away from the dreaded stuff, in my childhood
Of course, i do know people that downed whole bottlesfull in order to "keep their insides clean".

"The good Christian should beware the mathematician and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell." - St. Augustine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 11-23-2006 7:57 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by nator, posted 11-28-2006 3:58 PM U can call me Cookie has not replied
 Message 20 by truthlover, posted 11-28-2006 4:33 PM U can call me Cookie has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 18 of 97 (366551)
11-28-2006 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by U can call me Cookie
11-28-2006 10:09 AM


I am quite sure that castor oil is an effective laxative. There's reliable research on toxicology and effectiveness of it when ingested.
Nothing, however, on the way PD claims it can work on the liver.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by U can call me Cookie, posted 11-28-2006 10:09 AM U can call me Cookie has not replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 19 of 97 (366555)
11-28-2006 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
11-23-2006 7:57 AM


Ok, I'm totally interested here. I have naturopath friends, and I have exactly the same questions about these herbs that "draw" things out. How in the world do they draw anything? Are they chemical magnets?
On the other hand, one of the "drawing" mixes I've seen used is a Nature's Sunshine product called "black ointment" that has comfrey and some other herbs in it. It is absolutely miraculous on horrific insect bites, including being a 100% successful remedy so far to brown recluse bites, which do not even pretend to start healing with any other remedies I've seen tried. I also used it on a runaway tick bite that had caused swelling over about 1/3 of my thigh and most of my abdomen (frightening to say the least).
I don't know if it really draws anything, but it sure works on recluse bites.
Does anyone know whether there's any such thing as medication that draws things out? I have heard castor oil said to be able to do that. I, too, have found that claim unbelievable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 11-23-2006 7:57 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by nator, posted 11-28-2006 4:59 PM truthlover has not replied
 Message 22 by Coragyps, posted 11-28-2006 5:22 PM truthlover has not replied
 Message 24 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-09-2006 6:14 AM truthlover has not replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 20 of 97 (366556)
11-28-2006 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by U can call me Cookie
11-28-2006 10:09 AM


Castor oil is also used in midwifery circles to get labor started when the expecting mother is late (or impatient), rather than going straight to pitocin (sp?), which sometimes causes a pretty ineffective labor.
Rumor has it (even from my wife who is a doula and has seen it used far more than I have) that it is mildly effective for this purpose, though the three or four mothers I knew who tried it just found it effective as a laxative .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by U can call me Cookie, posted 11-28-2006 10:09 AM U can call me Cookie has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 21 of 97 (366562)
11-28-2006 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by truthlover
11-28-2006 4:28 PM


quote:
Does anyone know whether there's any such thing as medication that draws things out? I have heard castor oil said to be able to do that. I, too, have found that claim unbelievable.
I don't know if the "drawing" action you speak of is really what happens, or if some substance or combination of substances "gets in" and counteracts whatever is causing the problem.
However, if there is a "drawing" action, I could MUCH more readily belive it to work in the case of bites or other injuries where there is an actual break in the skin, and also where the problem is with or in the skin and adjacent tissues.
What I don't even begin to understand is how on earth a castor oil in a pack pack laid on the unbroken skin over the area where the liver is gets through the skin, through bones, fat, connective tissue, muscle, and other organs without affecting them, and "draws out" a specific hormone.
That simply goes against everything I have ever learned in my year of Mammalian anatomy and Physiology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by truthlover, posted 11-28-2006 4:28 PM truthlover has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 22 of 97 (366566)
11-28-2006 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by truthlover
11-28-2006 4:28 PM


I have exactly the same questions about these herbs that "draw" things out.
Sounds like Ichthammol. There's a German patent from 1885 on how it's made, and it apparently really is useful in treating some skin diseases. I've seen it sold as a "drawing ointment," but the label didn't say what it drew or from where.
AbE: ichthammol is made from "bituminous schist," according to my Merck's Index. Just in case you wondered.
Edited by Coragyps, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by truthlover, posted 11-28-2006 4:28 PM truthlover has not replied

Meddle
Member (Idle past 1270 days)
Posts: 179
From: Scotland
Joined: 05-08-2006


Message 23 of 97 (368299)
12-07-2006 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by purpledawn
11-25-2006 12:40 PM


Re: Castor Oil Packs
Just a quick question. You say you are heading into menopause, which results from a decrease in oestrogen, as the ovaries cease producing the hormone. Why then does your naturopath think you have an excess of oestrogen i.e. what symptoms are they basing this diagnosis on?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by purpledawn, posted 11-25-2006 12:40 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by purpledawn, posted 12-09-2006 10:42 AM Meddle has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 24 of 97 (368618)
12-09-2006 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by truthlover
11-28-2006 4:28 PM


yes, that's ichthammol. it sucks, hardcore, just like it's supposed to. it also stains everything a nasty shade of grease.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by truthlover, posted 11-28-2006 4:28 PM truthlover has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by nator, posted 12-10-2006 9:41 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 25 of 97 (368635)
12-09-2006 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Meddle
12-07-2006 7:36 PM


Perimenopause
quote:
Just a quick question. You say you are heading into menopause, which results from a decrease in oestrogen, as the ovaries cease producing the hormone. Why then does your naturopath think you have an excess of oestrogen i.e. what symptoms are they basing this diagnosis on?
My ND did not diagnose excess estrogen. My GYN diagnosed unopposed estrogen (more estrogen than progesterine) several years ago. No she didn't do any tests, she prescribed progestorine based on my explanation of my symptoms, records I kept on my menstrual cycle and a physical exam.
From the book: Could it be Perimenopause? by Steven R. Goldstein, M.D. and Laurie Ashner.
When a woman does not ovulate, she makes no progesterone. ...
How important is this lack of progesterone to balance out the estrogen? Researchers have found that when estrogen levels alone are rising, a host of physical symptoms can develop, including: Salt and fluid retention, Low blood-suar levels, Blood clotting, Fibroid tumor enhancement, Altered thyroid hormone function (leading to weight gain and/or feelings of exhaustion), Increased production of body fat, and sluggish, low-energy feeling.
In addition, many women experience subtle pshchological syptomatology that in the past ha been chalked up to everything except fluctuating levels of unopposed estrogen. These symptoms include: Depression, Free-floating anxiety, Sleep distrubances, Forgetfulness, Change in libido (i.e., less desire for sex than usual), Mood swings, and Inability to concentrate.
The use of castor oil packs to deal with excess estrogen from xenoestrogens was something I gleaned a few years ago from a few books on natural hormone health which were written by NDs. See Message 7. I haven't really made use of it for that reason.
My own use of the castor oil packs are related to gallstones and liver support.
Estrogen Dominance is a problem for women today. Here is an excerpt from Estrogen Reduction Protocol
You may have on-and-off sinus problems, headaches, dry eyes, asthma, cold hands and feet, and may not attribute them to your exposure to xenoestrogen. Over time, the exposure can cause more chronic problems such as arthritis, and gallbladder disease.
From what I have read on the packs, detoxification of the liver is the objective.
In summary, estrogen is metabolized in the liver. Herbs that fortify the liver will speed up estrogen clearance from the body. Estrogen that is not metabolized by the liver will continue to circulate and exert it effect on the body.
So the question concerning castor oil packs whether for estrogen dominance or gallbladder problems is can the castor oil have any impact on the liver when applied to the skin over the liver?
_______
Just a note to anyone responding to me, that all things I talk about concerning my own health aren't necessarily happening to me at this moment. Perimenopause is an event that can cover over 10 years. It isn't a steady decline of estrogen, it is more like a sputtering engine or roller coaster.
Also note that I'm not trying to prove that castor oil packs work for various ailments, I want to look at the possibility that they work. How might they work. What they are supposedly doing to help the body.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Meddle, posted 12-07-2006 7:36 PM Meddle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by nator, posted 12-10-2006 9:25 AM purpledawn has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 26 of 97 (368785)
12-10-2006 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by purpledawn
12-09-2006 10:42 AM


Re: Perimenopause
What I wonder is why you only use "natural" sources, when they have in general shown again and again that they are not bound to evidence as the basis for their claims?
Here's what I found that is evidence-based that discusses "both" sides:
source
What this all means is that the theory of estrogen dominance is very real, but its significance lies in the overall ratio of estrogen to progesterone ” and this ratio is an individualized one. Of all women experiencing symptoms of estrogen dominance, some with low levels of progesterone may do very well with progesterone supplementation, whereas others with normal progesterone levels may be better off focusing on changes that can reduce their estrogen levels. How do you know where you fit in? The only way to really tell is to have your hormone levels checked and take action from there.
AFAICT, you never had a blood test to check your hormone levels.
quote:
So the question concerning castor oil packs whether for estrogen dominance or gallbladder problems is can the castor oil have any impact on the liver when applied to the skin over the liver?
Yes, that is the question.
The OP lists a number of very basic issues that thus far have not been addressed.
In addition, there is even a decent study conducted by people who follow Cayce's quackery that did not find any breakdown products of castor oil in blood or urine when the castor oil was applied to the skin.
As I have gone looking for the symptoms and diseases castor oil packs are supposed to be able to cure or help, my bullshit detector was pealing madly. Look at these lists:
Holistic Treatment for: cholecystitis (inflammation of the gall bladder), poor eliminations, epilepsy, various liver conditions such as cirrhosis and torpid liver, scleroderma, headaches, appendicitis, arthritis, incoordination between assminilations and eliminations, colitis, intestinal disorders such as stricture and colon impaction, incoordination between nervous systems, neuritis, and toxemia.
Colon impaction? Appendicitis? Epilepsy? Cirrhosis of the liver?
Castor oil packs may be beneficial in treating the following ailments
Liver overload due to taking prescribed or over-the-counter drugs
Drinking too much alcohol
Conditions that tax or compromise your immune system,
Problems involving lymph flow
Congestion
Inflammation: joints, arthritis, bursitis, muscles, organs
Cholecystitis (inflammation of the gall bladder)
If a castor oil pack is placed over your liver area, it will help your liver to do its work more efficiently, including the metabolism of your hormones.
Kidney, and pelvic disorders
Neuritis (inflammation of the nerves)
Digestive disorders
Intestinal disorders such as constipation, stricture, colon impaction, colitis
Menstrual irregularities and uterine and ovarian cysts
Epilepsy
Scleroderma
Headaches
Appendicitis
Back pain
Incoordination between nervous systems
Toxemia - blood poisoning caused by bacterial toxic substances in the blood
Toxemia? Ovarian and uterine cysts?
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by purpledawn, posted 12-09-2006 10:42 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by purpledawn, posted 12-13-2006 12:01 PM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 27 of 97 (368788)
12-10-2006 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by macaroniandcheese
12-09-2006 6:14 AM


quote:
yes, that's ichthammol. it sucks, hardcore, just like it's supposed to.
Does, it, though? Or, does something in the preparation get in?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-09-2006 6:14 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-10-2006 9:54 AM nator has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 28 of 97 (368792)
12-10-2006 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by nator
12-10-2006 9:41 AM


what do you mean?
if you have a cyst or a bite you just goop it on and put a bandaid on and it pulls the gunk out.
Ichthyol® or ammonium bituminosulphonate (CAS 8029-68-3) is a product of natural origin obtained in the first step by dry distillation of sulphur-rich oil shale. It is used in medicine as a remedy for treating some forms of skin diseases, such as acne, eczema and psoriasis. It is commonly used in an ointment in 10% or 20% concentrate as a "drawing salve", also called "black ointment". Its dermatological action was discovered by Austrian physician Paul Gerson Unna.
Composition is C28H36S5O6(NH4)2
Chemically, it is a sulphonated shale oil. It can be presented in two forms: pale sulfonated shale oil (PSSO), and dark sulfonated shale oil (DSSO). DSSO is also sometimes called ichthammol®. The last form is a thick reddish brown liquid, possessing a bituminous odor and taste. It is soluble in water and miscible with glycerin, but is nearly insoluble in strong alcohol or concentrated ether. It contains a large percentage of organically combined sulphur. Ichthyol® is incompatible with acids, alkali carbonates or hydrates and alkaloidal salts.
Pharmacologically, PSSO and DSSO have anti-inflammatory, bactericidal and fungicidal properties. In otology, a mixture of glycerol and ichthammol® (G & I) has been used for generations for the topical treatment of ear infections. It is efficient against Gram-positive organisms. The anti-inflammatory action is explained by its influence on the formation, secretion and effect of inflammation mediators. DSSO is well tolerated and no indications of teratogenic, mutagenic or carcinogenic effects have been noted.
The European Medicines Agency recently published a Summary Report on ICHTHYOL®-substances (synonym: bituminosulfonates) in course of the European Maximum Residue Limits (MRL) procedure (see report from June 2005) in veterinary medicine. The committee for Medicinal Products for Veterinary Use (CVMP) decided that because of good tolerance and safety there is no need to establish an MRL for ICHTHYOL®-substances. As a result, ICHTHYOL®-substances can be applied topically in all mammalian food producing species without restriction.
Glycerol and ichthammol: medicinal solution or mythical potion?
* Nilssen E,
* Wormald PJ,
* Oliver S.
Department of Otorhinolaryngology, Groote Schuur Hospital, Cape Town, Republic of South Africa.
Glycerol and ichthammol (G & I) has been used for generations by otologists. However, there is a paucity of information on both its mode of action and its anti-bacterial properties. The aim of this paper was to ascertain firstly, what the most common organisms found in discharging ears were and secondly, what antibacterial activity G & I had against these organisms. All ear swabs from 1992-1994 in our unit were reviewed to ascertain the prevalence of the commonly isolated organisms. Fresh isolates of these organisms were collected and plated onto agar with wells of glycerol, ichthammol and a combination of both as used in clinical practice. The diameters of the zones of inhibition observed after incubation were measured in millimetres. Common isolates were: Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Staphylococcus aureus, Proteus mirabalis, Streptococcus pyogenes in descending order of frequency. Pure glycerol showed no significant zones of inhibition against any of the organisms tested. The average zones of inhibition for G & I and ichthammol alone were for Staphylococcus aureus 15 mm and 18 mm and for Streptococcus pyogenes: 16 mm and 23 mm. Ichthammol alone was significantly more effective than G & I (p < 0.001). There was no significant activity against Proteus mirabalis and Pseudomonas aeruginosa. The therapeutic benefit of G & I is due in part to the inherent anti-bacterial activity of ichthammol against the Gram positive organisms as well as its anti-inflammatory action and the dehydrating effect of the glycerol.
the first is wiki and the second is from nih. just google ichthammol and it's there. anyways. i understand skepticism. i also understand practical experience. it works, whether some lab tech has decided to test it or not. maybe it only aids in speeding the natural process of your body repulsing foreign substances, but it does clear up cysts and bites.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by nator, posted 12-10-2006 9:41 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by nator, posted 12-10-2006 10:20 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 29 of 97 (368795)
12-10-2006 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by macaroniandcheese
12-10-2006 9:54 AM


quote:
it works, whether some lab tech has decided to test it or not. maybe it only aids in speeding the natural process of your body repulsing foreign substances, but it does clear up cysts and bites.
I know that it works. I've used it on horses with great results.
What I am questioning is how it works.
The conventional wisdom is that it works by drawing bad stuff out.
I strongly suspect that instead, it works by getting in and neutralizing the bad stuff.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-10-2006 9:54 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-10-2006 10:24 AM nator has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 30 of 97 (368796)
12-10-2006 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by nator
12-10-2006 10:20 AM


i see. well, maybe. but it causes cysts to open and drain, so maybe the "drawing" is just what happens.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by nator, posted 12-10-2006 10:20 AM nator has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024