Jesus; the Torah, Nevi'im, and Psalms (Part 2)

As I'm sure you've notice, I like to look at the natural meaning of the writing, which I thought was the intent of the Bible Study, but apparently others don't.I stressed the A&I in hopes of keeping to the more natural meaning.

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There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

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I quoted Paul.

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Since you didn't specify the verse, I have to guess. This passage does not even remotely say that all things in the OT were a shadow of things in Christ. Paul is specifying rituals, not prophecies.

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If you don't want to accept the New Testament as the word of God, that's your business.

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I feel that the word of God should have no problem being taken at face value. I don't automatically accept dogma and tradition though.

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There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

I quoted Paul "Does God take care for oxen?"

i don't agree with it because it doesn't make sense.prophecy predicts something. predictions can be verified to an extent. di the event happen, or not? predictions that happen, or don't happen, or are way late, ok. but predictions that "predict" something totally unrelated to the actual prediction? i mean, if it says that "the king of judah will ride in jerusalem on a donkey, and he will abolish war by conquering the world." is it true if he doesn't do the second part? i mean, we could say that christ conquered the world through the roman empire. ok. that's fine. but we're still fighting war.

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אָרַח

And still didn't provide the verse number, thank you.The Jewish teaching concerning the oxen in Deuteronomy. In 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy, Paul was using the reference to the oxen to justify getting paid. Which does not change the natural meaning of the original verse.He was using the D’rash (pronounced deh-rahsh' also called "Midrash") a teaching. But Paul did not change the original meaning of the passage.Paul also was not referring to a prophecy.This passage also does not make your point concerning prophecy refulfillment.

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There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

i think this is a new thing in christianity. instead of looking at a verse, and trying to figure out what it means in context, and what the book is saying, we have to try to fit everything into some scheme, or reading, or interpretation that we came up with before we even figured what the verse SAYS.i'm a literalist. i believe we should try to be faithful to what the bible SAYS. not what box we try to fit it into.

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אָרַח

pd suggested once that it might be a satire directed at witty jews to deny the divinity of christ, through ridicule, and we christians have just missed the joke.but yes, i was being generous and granting the possibility that it did indeed happen. john reports it as well, so it's possible. the bit about matthew that makes it funny is that somehow jesus rides TWO animals, because of the parallelism.

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אָרַח

There is also those dead people walking around Jerusalem.Come to think of it, you see that today, in every major city.. huge groups of zombie like people.

It's pretty black and white that Malachai 3:1 is talking about John the Baptist and Christ. So what is in there that does not describe Jesus?

Only when you take it out of context and ignore the rest of Malachai.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

In reading ALL of Malachi, God is the one who comes to the temple and the messenger is to be Elijah. Sounds like judgment day to me. Where does it mention Jesus or John?

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There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

While I know it is the traditional Christian concept, I have a certain problem with it.Why should any writing that is considered in a specific manner for a half a century or more suddenly be reinterpreted as a prediction for the future, after that prediction allegedly happened? Using that concept, you can make ANYTHING sound like it is being predicted.

Prophecy is far more accurate if you do it like most Christians. First wait 'till it happens, then search through until you find something you can make fit. If it means taking things out of context, no problem.Prophecy after the fact can be made 100% accurate.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

It is the New Testament writers themselves who interpret the Old Testament prophecies as pointing to Jesus as the Messiah. That comes certainly from the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but could also suggest that there was a body of similar Old Testament teaching about the Messiah among the rabbis of the time. These interpretations were also developed by various Church Fathers in the first few centuries. And I posted many references to The Messiah Texts some months ago, in which rabbis, mostly from the medieval period IIRC, are quoted giving interpretations that support the NT.I guess you can dismiss the New Testament writers of course -- though one wonders what makes you a Christian at that point -- or dismiss the rabbis, as perhaps unrepresentative, which they may be.The actual fraud that is perpetrated against the Bible is not the one you allege, but the one done by the Liberal Christians and others who redate the text to move prophecy from its traditional dates to a later time, after the fulfillment of the prophecy, simply because they don't believe in prophecy. Thus the Book of Daniel has been redated from the period of the Babylonian Capitivity to much later just because Daniel's prophecies were so accurate and so obviously fulfilled in history.This message has been edited by Faith, 12-28-2005 10:02 PM

Absolutely, just as I said.After the fact prophecy can be very accurate. A good example was the specific verse that had been mentioned, Malachai 3:1. It's said to be a messianic prophecy, yet if you read it in context and read all of Malachai, it's absolutely positively NOT related to either Jesus or John the Baptist.There is little doubt that later writers went back and tried to build a case to support their marketing.edited to fix spelling errorsThis message has been edited by jar, 12-28-2005 11:30 PM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion