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Member (Idle past 6208 days) Posts: 58 From: Pasadena, CA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Where Science And The Bible Meet | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Zhimbo Member (Idle past 6039 days) Posts: 571 From: New Hampshire, USA Joined: |
quote: I think it's perfectly acceptable that Jesus was being a bit poetical. But that would nullify your opening post. Remember your opening post? Sure, consider it a poetic expression made in terms understandable by contemporary listeners - but you can't ALSO consider an example of scientific accuracy. These are contradictory opinions.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 312 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
So what good would it do for God to speak scientifically to the people of the time when this was written? But why speak unscientifically? Stars are bigger than the Earth, they're very hot, if just one came near us the Earth would fall into the star, 'cos that's how gravity works, and we'd melt and evaporate before we even hit.
They would not have a clue what He was talking about. Whereas instead he gave them the plain, simple message that stars were going to fall out of the sky. Which is nice and straightforward to understand and, let's face it, it's not going to happen.
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Garrett Member (Idle past 6193 days) Posts: 111 From: Dallas, TX Joined: |
I think a lot of the confusion has to do with what people of the time would consider to be a star. I'm guessing if large amounts of asteroids or comets were to crash to earth, 1st century people would consider them stars.
Further, 'star' is just the English word chosed to represent the word originally used in the source language. Maybe it was the closest fit, but not precise. So, from this perspective it could happen. Really, it appears the only thing that couldn't happen is someone with an anti-biblical bias actually looking at a bible verse with an open mind rather than scepticism.
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 762 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
Further, 'star' is just the English word chosed to represent the word originally used in the source language. True. The original term likely meant either "little speck of light stuck on the inside of the firmament" or possibly "pinhole in the firmament." And you need not think for a moment that anyone in 90AD knew about asterois.
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Garrett Member (Idle past 6193 days) Posts: 111 From: Dallas, TX Joined: |
Granted, they would have no clue what asteroids were. My main assertion is that 'stars' could be the description Jesus used to get the point across. I think even though they wouldn't know asteroids, they would certainly consider them a fulfillment of what Jesus said if they were to come crashing to earth in large quantities.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
True. The original term likely meant either "little speck of light stuck on the inside of the firmament" or possibly "pinhole in the firmament." Since it is pretty obvious that many folk of the period thought that the firmament was an actual, physical dome, that is probably correct.
And you need not think for a moment that anyone in 90AD knew about asteroids. That part though is likely wrong. They knew about meteorites, and collected and used them as a source for iron. They even knew that they came from the sky. They did not though know the origin, the history or the mechanics of meteorites and all of their speculations about them, were wrong. Beyond the simple observation that sometimes rocks fell from the sky and that some of those rocks were metal of a very high quality, they were clueless. The point is that nothing in the passages is scientific. It can be taken for a sign just as thunder was a sign of Zeus' displeasure. But science it ain't. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Damouse Member (Idle past 4933 days) Posts: 215 From: Brookfield, Wisconsin Joined: |
On the topic of falling asteroids...
If one is in the center of a three dimensional sphere, does one know that there is a sphere? Existance would seem flat whereever he looked; looking at a side of the sphere would look like a large flat expanse. If stars are holes in this unmoving firmament, how can a hole of a plane detach itself and still be a hole? a hole is nothing without the area around it, the lack or area inside of it, that makes it a hole. therefore for stars to be falling, holes would have to move away from the firmament, dragging along the firmament around them to maintain their status as holes before hitting the ground. Scientifically and logically, this train of thought makes is rediculous, and its hard to believe that god would not be a little more clear and tell the actual science behind "the sky is falling!" This statement is false.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Damouse writes: If stars are holes in this unmoving firmament.... Why would they be? Wouldn't they be more like lamps hanging from the ceiling/firmament? Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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Damouse Member (Idle past 4933 days) Posts: 215 From: Brookfield, Wisconsin Joined: |
Jar and coragyps decided that "holes in the firmament" were about right, and i dont claim to have any particular proficiency in mythology, so i took their uncontested agreement and ran with it.
lol "and so the sun will stop shining, the moon will stop its light, and the lamps will fall" This statement is false.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Jar and coragyps decided that "holes in the firmament" were about right, and i dont claim to have any particular proficiency in mythology, so i took their uncontested agreement and ran with it. The holes in the firmament are what open and close to let the water above come through. The stars are likely lights in or on the firmament. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Damouse Member (Idle past 4933 days) Posts: 215 From: Brookfield, Wisconsin Joined: |
quote: Where "star" is the direct object of the quote clause, Coragyps responds with the "pinhole in the firmament" clause. To which you responded with:
quote: So it was interpereted as a light stuck on the inside of the firmament, not a hole? It was a little confusing when you answered positively to two seperate options. "Do you like orange or apple?""Yes." Edited by Damouse, : No reason given. This statement is false.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I don't remember the thread but without a link to the conversation I will simply accept what you posted.
You need to remember that the Bible is not consistent. This is particularly true in regard to the physical world. That is to be expected when you stop to realize that you are looking at stories written over many hundreds of years if not thousands of years. One basic concept that appears in some of the older stories is of a firmament. The firmament was literally thought to be a dome, a solid object, that separated the waters above from the earth. It had to be solid or all the water would fall down. It also had to have parts that could be opened or closed to explain rain. Stars, the Sun and the Moon could either be inside of the dome, or the dome could be transparent so that their light shined through. That would not prevent some other author from writing a tale were the heavens were fiery and the stars were pin holes in the firmament that let the light through. Do not make the mistake of assuming consistency is required of the stories in the Bible. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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imageinvisible Member (Idle past 5946 days) Posts: 132 From: Arlington, Texas, US Joined: |
Error Page | shamar.org
I think you missed the point, not uncommon, so many do. As to Matthew 24:29 if you didn't notice those are red letter words. Jesus, the Creator of the universe, is speaking. This is the same man who walked on water, raised the dead, restored sight to blind men, cured the sick, calmed a storm with the words from His mouth, etc. etc. ect. He controls the universe. Why don't you read verse 30 while you are at it. That way when it happen's you can't say you where not warned. Perhaps you will even recognize it when you see it, and repent.
Young's literal translation, Matthew writes: 24:29`And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken;24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory; When you control the universe, you can tell it to do what ever you want it to do, and it has no choice but to obay.
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5936 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
imageinvisible
When you control the universe, you can tell it to do what ever you want it to do, and it has no choice but to obay. So exactly how do stars "fall" from heaven if you could please explain?
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
ArchArchitect writes: People keep saying that the Bible and Science are enemies. In reality they are not. imagineinvisible writes: Jesus, the Creator of the universe, is speaking. This is the same man who walked on water, raised the dead, restored sight to blind men, cured the sick, calmed a storm with the words from His mouth, etc. etc. ect. He controls the universe. You honestly think the arguement of the OP is being supported by what you just said? You seem to be saying that Jesus could use magic to circumvent the laws of physics. If he did have supernatural powers that are beyond the ken of mortal man then it can't be science (if it is it is hardly divine). If this is so then you are contradicting the OP. So: apart from saying Jesus is magic and can bust physics' arse at will what is your point?
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