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Author Topic:   Does God = Allah
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1304 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 136 of 302 (307088)
04-27-2006 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Faith
04-27-2006 11:46 AM


Re: checking again.
faith writes:
If Christianity is correct then the others simply are not. If any other religion is correct then ours is not.
Is the possibility of each of them being partially correct (for example the common themes/events), but also each of them being flawed, totally closed to you?
I have difficulty understanding how one can accept a violent, vengeful... and seemingly irrational god who would kill people for having the wrong incence, or destroy a whole city beacuse of the beliefs of it's king out of one side of your mouth, and yet condemn the violent aspects of other religions.
but again, that is OT... sorry

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Faith, posted 04-27-2006 11:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 04-27-2006 3:07 PM Heathen has not replied
 Message 142 by Faith, posted 04-27-2006 3:11 PM Heathen has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 137 of 302 (307090)
04-27-2006 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by sidelined
04-27-2006 11:55 AM


Re: checking again.
The three religions worship different Gods. If Christianity is correct then the others simply are not.
So what you are saying here is that there is more than one God?
I suppose there is a semantic problem here, but of course I'm not saying there is more than one God, I'm saying that there are three contradictory concepts of God, so that at least two of them are false concepts, which is the same thing as idolatry or worshiping a false god.
It's like if somebody completely mischaracterizes what you think or say or do, you feel like saying "that's not me you're talking about, that's a figment of your imagination." Same idea.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by sidelined, posted 04-27-2006 11:55 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by ramoss, posted 04-27-2006 5:01 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 183 by sidelined, posted 04-28-2006 10:09 AM Faith has replied

ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4131 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 138 of 302 (307095)
04-27-2006 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Faith
04-27-2006 11:11 AM


Re: Either one or none is true.
I guess you think it's possible for two contradictory positions both to be true. Black is white, up is down, Jesus is the Son of God but He is not the Son of God, Isaac is Abraham's only heir, but Ishmael is also Abraham's only heir. No arguing with logic like that.
maybe if i really said something as absurd as this, but guess what, i did not
Being that these are stories, a person could read them anyway they like, as i said in my post before, the stories are the same but differ in detail
Oh and as I said before, your arguent is based on your faith in being right, you have no more basis than they do for thier beliefs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Faith, posted 04-27-2006 11:11 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Faith, posted 04-27-2006 2:58 PM ReverendDG has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 139 of 302 (307107)
04-27-2006 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Modulous
04-27-2006 12:28 PM


Nice statement of the Official Propaganda
Well when I look at it from the point of view of someone who is neither Christian Jewish nor Muslim it seems self apparant they all worship the same God, but have different ideas on that God's characteristics.
Which is the same thing as what I'm saying except that if you have wrong ideas about His characteristics that's as good as not knowing Him at all or worshiping a false God.
The best way to see this is to look from the Muslim point of view. From their point of view they worship the same God as Christians and Jews.
Apparently you haven't heard them ridicule the name of Jehovah or the idea that God has a Son. It is false of them to say that and then say they worship the same God.
They just see the original writings about that God having been corrupted by men over they centuries until they have warped so much the real meanings have been lost.
Yes, so "corrupted" that God in one of them says Isaac is Abraham's heir but in the "corrected" version lo and behold, it's not Isaac but Ishmael. Right, some "corruption." Or that in the "corrupted" version Jesus is the Son of God, but in the "corrected" version God has no Son. You believe the mallarky that that calls this the difference between a "corrupted" text and a true text? Not to mention that the claim of corrupted texts is easily falsified in any case and shown to be a bald lie.
They accept Jesus and Moses and Abraham as prophets of God, but disagree on some of the details that survived in recorded form about them.
Right, it's just a minor "detail" that changes the nature of Jesus Christ from God incarnate to a mere human prophet. Nothing to get all worked up about.
The Christian/Jewish thing is easier still. Naturally neither Christians nor Jews worship the Islamic idea of God but Christians do worship the Jewish God, but believe that He has provided us with a New Testament after he manifested himself into flesh and came to Earth.
Please read my Message 74. While in some technical sense we worship the same God, the one described in the Old Testament, if you take what Jesus actually said about the Pharisees of his day, the ones who didn't believe in Him, that they corrupted Moses' teachings, that God is not their father, that Abraham is not their father, but the devil himself is, claiming they have anything whatever to do with the God of the Christians is hard to support.
So, Christians worship the Jewish God and Muslims worship the God of Christians and Jews. Jews are the ones remaining. Obviously in their concept of God He has not been made flesh so Jesus was not his Son. Its the same God, they just deny that there was a New Testament and they are still working off the old one.
So it doesn't matter to God whether we understand anything correctly about Him or not, whether He has a Son or not, right? According to your neat little formula He doesn't care how people worship Him, although (at least according to the scriptures of two of the religions in question, scriptures supposedly but not really respected by the third major religion) He zapped out the lives of Israelite priests who did it wrong, and He wasn't at all pleased with their making a golden calf and worshiping it as if it represented Him either.
To cut the story short. They do worship the same God, their disagreement lies not in which God they worship but in the significance and authenticity of certain prophets. To Muslims, Jesus was a great prophet and Mohammed is the final prophet. To Christians, Jesus was God made flesh and Mohammed was not an authentic prophet. To Jews, neither Jesus nor Mohammed were authentic. Its not the God that the disagreement centres on, the disagreement lies in who His agents were.
Sorry Mod, you've just regurgitated the Official Multiculturalist Propaganda and trivialized the whole question. That post should earn you an A in introductory Comparative Religion as taught in any major university, but it's nothing but political correctness.
The religions aren't just "DIFFERENT," they CONTRADICT one another on MAJOR points. Calling God a "prophet" is NOT a minor point. Who Abraham's sole heir was is CRUCIAL to the whole meaning of the Biblical revelation of God through Israel.
Whatever similarities there are, and of course there are going to be similarities (just as there are a majority of similarities as opposed to differences between any three human beings), the contradictions are what make it clear these three conceptions of God are not describing the same Being.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Modulous, posted 04-27-2006 12:28 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Modulous, posted 04-27-2006 5:56 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 140 of 302 (307108)
04-27-2006 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by ReverendDG
04-27-2006 2:35 PM


Re: Either one or none is true.
Oh and as I said before, your arguent is based on your faith in being right, you have no more basis than they do for thier beliefs
My argument is not based on my own faith, I'm not arguing about the validity of my faith at all. The whole argument is about how the three religions contradict one another and cannot possibly be about the same Being.
Islam may be right, in which case Judaism and Christianity are completely wrong. Or Judaism may be right and Islam and Christianity wrong. Etc. They CANNOT all three be about the same God.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-27-2006 03:00 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by ReverendDG, posted 04-27-2006 2:35 PM ReverendDG has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 141 of 302 (307115)
04-27-2006 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Heathen
04-27-2006 2:25 PM


Re: checking again.
Is the possibility of each of them being partially correct (for example the common themes/events), but also each of them being flawed, totally closed to you?
Of course not. Of course they are all "partially correct," have some of the attributes of God correct. Basic stuff.
It's the contradictions that show that they are not the same God nevertheless, just three ideas about God that have some elements in common but crucial elements in contradiction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Heathen, posted 04-27-2006 2:25 PM Heathen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-27-2006 3:57 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 142 of 302 (307118)
04-27-2006 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Heathen
04-27-2006 2:25 PM


Re: checking again.
Having contradictions in the religions doesn’t make them worship different gods. If Islam claims that it is worshiping the same god as Jesus but Jesus was not his son, then they could be worshiping the same god and just be wrong in that claim. I don’t see how their misunderstanding automatically makes it a different god.
God's having a Son is the whole of Christianity. You don't eliminate that "minor little feature" without eliminating the God Christians worship.
Isaac's being Abraham's heir versus Ishmael's being his heir is the entire claim of the Jews to be the Chosen People. You don't eliminate that "minor little feature" without completely eliminating God's plan of salvation through the Jews and falsifying the nature of God Himself.
Etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Heathen, posted 04-27-2006 2:25 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Heathen, posted 04-27-2006 3:15 PM Faith has not replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1304 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 143 of 302 (307120)
04-27-2006 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Faith
04-27-2006 3:11 PM


Re: checking again.
Uhm... I didn't type that...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Faith, posted 04-27-2006 3:11 PM Faith has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 302 (307139)
04-27-2006 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Faith
04-27-2006 3:07 PM


Re: checking again.
just three ideas about God that have some elements in common but crucial elements in contradiction
This is why I think they can be the same god just that 2 of three have some wrong ideas about god. I don't see why being wrong about god makes it a different god, it could still be the same one.
For example, lets say that someone claims to have a revelation from god that is the same god as Jesus but they are god's second son. If I don't believe them and remain christian, that doesn't mean I'm worshiping a different god, it means that I think they are wrong about god. Its not that it is a different god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 04-27-2006 3:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Faith, posted 04-27-2006 8:39 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

great1
Inactive Member


Message 145 of 302 (307141)
04-27-2006 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by R. Cuaresma
03-03-2006 7:15 AM


Re: Bible and Koran?
Jesus tells us he is the sprit of prophecy. Jesus is also the only son of God. The Koran will teach the opposite of this. It is taught Allah (Muslim God) had no son. Do you think we believe in the same God?

This message is a reply to:
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great1
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 302 (307149)
04-27-2006 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
03-03-2006 10:09 AM


Re: yes, Allah - GOD, the Biblical GOD of Muslims, Jews and Christians
Christ tells us, He is the only way. I believe you are right about proclaiming Christians, some have very little spirt. Some use their relegion for their own agenda.In Matt. 24 Christ tells us that there will be a falling away of many, in other words, falling away from Christianity. This has to happen and the man of predition has to come on this earth before Christ returns. This falling away is happening at an alarming rate. If one looks at Europe and England, Christianity is becoming nonexistent. Jesus tells us in Matt 24 when the whole world, all nation hears of Him, then the end comes. We are possibly within fiftheen years of this. Pesonaly, I am looking for more and more Christians to fall away from the faith. I don't plan to be one of them. Have a good one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 03-03-2006 10:09 AM jar has not replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 633 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 147 of 302 (307155)
04-27-2006 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Faith
04-27-2006 2:26 PM


Re: checking again.
Have you ever heard the allegory of the 3 blind men and the elephant?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Faith, posted 04-27-2006 2:26 PM Faith has not replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 633 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 148 of 302 (307158)
04-27-2006 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by great1
04-27-2006 3:59 PM


Re: Bible and Koran?
Where does JESUS say he is the only son of god? On the contrary, he specifically says 'My father and your father', and 'you are all gods'.
The terminology he uses says we all our the children of God. In Psalms of David, 2:7, David is called 'the son of god', because of his actions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by great1, posted 04-27-2006 3:59 PM great1 has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 149 of 302 (307162)
04-27-2006 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Chronos
04-27-2006 12:01 PM


Not logically equivalent is the point
I agree with Faith that the Gods of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are not logically equivalent. The Islamic God does not have the Jews as a chosen people, and the Jewish God does not have a son - that should settle it right there, they are not exactly the same concept.
Thank you. Yes it should settle it, because those are the central points of the different beliefs, not just minor side issues. Contradictions on these points are irreconcilable, completely different ideas of God, completely different Gods. Either God chose Isaac or He chose Ishmael, not both. Jesus is either God or not God.
Since God is usually defined to be incomprehensible in some regards, couldn't we say that everyone has an incomplete understanding of God? What if the differences between Allah and Yahweh are minute in comparison to what is unknown about God?
Those differences are irrelevant. The differences we're talking about are the direct contradictions between the scriptures of the different belief systems, absolute irreconcilable contradictions mentioned above: Jesus as Son of God, God having no Son; Isaac as Abraham's only heir = Jews are Chosen People; Ishmael as his heir = Arabs are chosen people or at least Jews are not. There's no getting around this. Either the God of the Bible or the God of Islam has lied. Different Gods.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Chronos, posted 04-27-2006 12:01 PM Chronos has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-27-2006 5:50 PM Faith has replied
 Message 151 by PaulK, posted 04-27-2006 5:54 PM Faith has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 302 (307163)
04-27-2006 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Faith
04-27-2006 5:44 PM


Re: Not logically equivalent is the point
Contradictions on these points are irreconcilable, completely different ideas of God, completely different Gods.
Why can't you just stop at different ideas of God, and leave out the part of them being different gods. I still don't see why they can't be the same god just that some people are wrong about him.
Either the God of the Bible or the God of Islam has lied. Different Gods.
Its not that god has lied its that man is wrong about him, or man has lied. The god could be the same the whole time while man has all these misunderstandings about him. The misunderstnadings don't make it a different god.
Jesus is either God or not God.
And the Muslims that say that Jesus is not god are not worshiping a different god they are just wrong about the same god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Faith, posted 04-27-2006 5:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Faith, posted 04-27-2006 6:25 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

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