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Author Topic:   A Liberal's Pledge to Disheartened Conservatives ...by Michael Moore
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 151 of 161 (366340)
11-27-2006 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by truthlover
11-27-2006 1:14 PM


evidence contrary to schraf's assertion
Well you certainly live in the world that most others do, including physicians and psychologists. I decided to look up info and discovered an interesting discussion at BMJ.com, which if I gather correctly is the British Journal of Medicine?
An author wrote an article on the state of evidence regarding corporal punishment and argued that there should be a legal ban on corporal punishment. Letters came in questioning his evidence as well as his position. From this page on Child Discipline...
In the only published review (in 1996) of child outcomes of non-abusive or customary physical punishment, only eight studies could disentangle the causal effects of smacking.3 All eight studies, including four randomised clinical trials, found that nonabusive smacking benefited children when it backed up milder disciplinary tactics with children aged 2 to 6 years...
Eighteen studies in the 1996 review investigated alternative disciplinary tactics as well as smacking.3 Only grounding was more effective than smacking, in two studies of older children. In contrast, nine alternatives were associated with more detrimental outcomes in children than was smacking.
Then another critic...
As a participant in the American Academy of Pediatrics consensus conference, I would like to clarify some of its findings. The group's goal was to develop consensus statements regarding the scientific evidence on the long term and short term effects of corporal punishment on children. Definitions were the first order of business for the group: corporal punishment was defined as "bodily punishment of any kind"; spanking was defined as "physically non-injurious, intended to modify behavior, and administered with the open hand to the buttocks or the extremities." Using strict definitions prevented the common mistake of mixing abusive physical punishment with non-injurious spanking. With these definitions, however, the committee could not reach any strong conclusions favouring or opposing a parent's use of disciplinary spanking for children aged 2-11 years.
Central to the conference was the exhaustive review of the literature on corporal punishment presented by clinical psychologist Robert Larzelere. He found stronger evidence of beneficial than detrimental effects of non-abusive spanking by parents with preschool children (aged 2 to 6 years). The conference chairpersons concluded: "Given a relatively `healthy' family life in a supportive environment, spanking in and of itself is not detrimental to a child or predictive of later problems . . . there is a lack of research related to the use of corporal punishment."2
Developmental research indicates that optimal outcomes in children result from an authoritative style of parenting that combines positive encouragement with consistent behavioural control of the young child.3 Waterston describes the process of encouragement well, but leaves parents shorthanded on techniques for behavioural control. Young children need correction and punishment, but this is often ignored by the opponents of physical punishment. Time out and disapproval are effective tools but are not sufficient to control all problem behaviour with all children. Disciplinary spanking, when properly applied, can augment nonphysical measures and optimise the process of behavioural control.
and another...
The evidence cited by Waterston has shown that smacking has adverse effects only when it is excessive. There is no evidence that occasional smacking is harmful, and indeed it would be astonishing if there were, given the trivial nature of the physical and psychological event. There are even theoretical reasons to suppose that smacking may be less harmful than some alternative strategies. It is, after all, quickly over and avoids protracted emotional withdrawal ("I won't love you if you're naughty") which, for many parents, is the alternative.
It can be inferred from Waterston's article that he acknowledges that a consistent and measured strategy of discipline that happens to include smacking is likely to benefit rather than to harm a child.
Indeed that last point is made when reading Waterston's response to his critics, but first...
Larzelere states that smacking has beneficial outcomes, on the evidence of his review published in 1996.1 These outcomes were short term only and in artificial situations. Of the eight studies he mentions that showed benefit of non-abusive smacking, five were laboratory studies by the same team,2 the children were in an extreme group for disordered behaviour, and only immediate outcomes were assessed. Parents were trained to give two spanks while being observed by a therapist, and it would not be wise to draw general conclusions in relation to the population of smacking parents. The authors state that spanking was not a superior method of discipline. A sixth study was on one extremely disordered child with no control subject,3 and in the remaining studies in which parents used structured diaries to observe the effects of their own management of their children within specific parameters, the authors stated that "to use this research as general evidence supporting punitive parenting or corporal punishment outside these parameters would be totally inappropriate."4
Unfortunately this is Waterston using appropriately caveated results as if that challenges the results found. Regardless of the above he is forced into an admission positive results of some kind can be found. Negative ones were not. The worst that could be said in one study is that it wasn't a superior method.
I agree with Hain that there is no evidence that occasional smacking is harmful, and that it provides a model to the child. Is the practice of violence by parents against a small child a good model to learn from?
Thus his forced admission is clear, his rebuttal is hollow rhetoric.
Why does he argue for a ban on everything...
A key part of the case against a ban on corporal punishment is the desire to distinguish between injurious and non-injurious smacking. In legal terms this is not possible, as a smack on any part of the body is potentially injurious, whatever the intention.
But this is to ignore what a critic states earlier...
So why does he oppose it so strongly? Perhaps because his experience is that for many parents smacking is not a measured or consistent strategy. Instead, it is a last resort when control is lost. It is this element of unpredictable, irrational, and potentially uncontrolled violence that is dangerous in smacking, rather than the smack itself.
By definition, this element will not be influenced by changing the law. In recommending legislation against smacking, Waterston ensures that chaotic, uncontrolled smacking will continue, and that only measured smacking, which does no harm and may even help a child understand discipline, will stop. In other words, he will have achieved the reverse of his intention.
I'd suggest people read the full link, and one can get to some additional material from that page.
I'm not trying to suggest this is definitive, but it is relatively recent (2000) and clearly people in the field were finding contrary results than what schraf suggests.

holmes
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by truthlover, posted 11-27-2006 1:14 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4087 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 152 of 161 (366359)
11-27-2006 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Silent H
11-27-2006 2:39 PM


Re: evidence contrary to schraf's assertion
Thanks Holmes, for your research.
I've seen the parents that yell at their kids in WalMart, whack them in anger, etc. It's obvious those poor kids need help. Obviously, zero percent of such parents will be against corporal punishment.
On the other hand, there are caring parents who are training their children who slap the back of their hand or their buttocks not out of anger but out of a desire to teach their children good behavior. It's very effective, and I have a lot of test cases.
Before I had children--in fact, before I was married--I purposely conducted a survey of the parents of every set of well-behaved, happy, and respectful children I met for about five years. I simply asked them what they did to produce such wonderful children.
There was 100% consistency in their answers. A combination of consistent discipline (the lines were clear for the children) and love. My observation over those five years was that love from a parent to a child is best spelled T-I-M-E. I've heard and read about "quality time," but I've seen no evidence that quality time means anything at all. Time is what matters. Loving parents are interested in their children's lives and their children can get their attention. That combined with clear lines and consistent discipline when the lines are crossed were the common traits in all the parents I queried and watched.
It works. As Coach Boone put it in _Remember the Titans_, "It's like novocaine, just keep at it and it works every time."
There are difficult children who won't be wonderful and easy no matter what you do, but I'm talking generally here. Nothing is 100% in this world.
2nd Issue:
What can be done with those poor kids who are yelled at, slapped, harrassed? I'd love to snatch those children and take them home with me and deliver them from that terrible environment. I can't, of course, and what's frightening is that if the state grabs them and puts them in foster care, there is a very good chance their plight will be even worse.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 153 of 161 (366370)
11-27-2006 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by truthlover
11-27-2006 4:44 PM


Re: evidence contrary to schraf's assertion
quote:
what's frightening is that if the state grabs them and puts them in foster care, there is a very good chance their plight will be even worse.
I'm not sure that this is true, but if it is then I would not be surprised. The state has never shown any signs that it actually likes children.

Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by truthlover, posted 11-27-2006 4:44 PM truthlover has replied

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1432 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 154 of 161 (366414)
11-28-2006 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by truthlover
11-27-2006 4:44 PM


Re: evidence contrary to schraf's assertion
A combination of consistent discipline (the lines were clear for the children)
Agreed. Add to this never threaten {punishment\consequences} you are not willing or able to carry out (this includes the infamous "wait til your daddy gets home"), and in very young children you need to keep the consequences timely.
One also needs to distinguish reason(s) for {innapropriate act} from intention to {innapropriate act}.

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Adminnemooseus
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Posts: 3976
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 155 of 161 (366417)
11-28-2006 12:33 AM


Time to reconnect with the topic?
My guess {recollection\rumination} is that the recent material has something to do with the topic. Maybe make the connection a little more explicit?
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 156 of 161 (366436)
11-28-2006 4:26 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Adminnemooseus
11-28-2006 12:33 AM


Re: Time to reconnect with the topic?
My guess {recollection\rumination} is that the recent material has something to do with the topic. Maybe make the connection a little more explicit?
Uh... the American public gave the reps a spanking?
heheheh, sorry for the OT sideline.

holmes
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1432 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 157 of 161 (366451)
11-28-2006 8:05 AM


Evidence of a more liberal america?
Hey, Kramer - thanks for everything
Breaking News, World News, US and Local News - NY Daily News - New York Daily News
quote:
I'd like to say a good word about Michael Richards. Mel Gibson, too. Why not throw in Sen. George Allen (R-Va.)? This is what I have to say: Thank you.
... and in an industry where jealousy and score-settling thrive, no one accused Gibson of even a single other anti-Semitic incident. In other words, his drunken outburst does not seem related to his day-to-day behavior.
... but particularly as the most recent election loomed, Allen scurried to get with the program. He had co-sponsored the reauthorization of the Voting Rights Act and appeared with Rep. John Lewis (D-Ga.), a hero of the civil rights movement, to express remorse for slavery. Odd behavior indeed for a bigot.
Now we get to Richards. The appalling heat of his outburst was taped and shown over and over again on TV. Just on that score, his rant has a power the others lack. And he used the N-word, an epithet without peer as a prelude to violence. But here, too, the words seem uncoupled from any action. If he is a racist - and I will not argue with those who insist he is - he is a lethargic one. As for his audience, some people walked out, others booed and Richards has been banned from the club.
This is the case now with all such remarks. They trigger a fear that the remark is a clue to what society in general really feels. But what follows is a roar of universal condemnation.
We have come so far that it is not the vilified group that's hurt by the insult, but the person making it. Richards fights for his professional life, Gibson licks his wounds, Allen lost the election ...
Fifty years ago these comments would have been shrugged off by most people as common.
Something to think about eh?
Now let's turn to something else Michel Moore has to say:
Michael Moore | Substack
quote:
Yesterday marked the day that we had been in Iraq longer than we were in all of World War II.
That's right. We were able to defeat all of Nazi Germany, Mussolini, and the entire Japanese empire in LESS time than it's taken the world's only superpower to secure the road from the airport to downtown Baghdad.
And we haven't even done THAT. After 1,347 days, in the same time it took us to took us to sweep across North Africa, storm the beaches of Italy, conquer the South Pacific, and liberate all of Western Europe, we cannot, after over 3 and 1/2 years, even take over a single highway and protect ourselves from a homemade device of two tin cans placed in a pothole. No wonder the cab fare from the airport into Baghdad is now running around $35,000 for the 25-minute ride. And that doesn't even include a friggin' helmet.
Is this utter failure the fault of our troops? Hardly. That's because no amount of troops or choppers or democracy shot out of the barrel of a gun is ever going to "win" the war in Iraq. It is a lost war, lost because it never had a right to be won, lost because it was started by men who have never been to war, men who hide behind others sent to fight and die.
Let's listen to what the Iraqi people are saying, according to a recent poll conducted by the University of Maryland:
** 71% of all Iraqis now want the U.S. out of Iraq.
** 61% of all Iraqis SUPPORT insurgent attacks on U.S. troops.
Yes, the vast majority of Iraqi citizens believe that our soldiers should be killed and maimed! So what the hell are we still doing there? Talk about not getting the hint.
If we are activley not wanted and
If we cannot keep violence from getting worse AND
As Iraq STILL has nothing to do with the terrorists that attacked the towers
What's the point?
quote:
3. We must atone for the atrocity we have perpetuated on the people of Iraq. There are few evils worse than waging a war based on a lie, invading another country because you want what they have buried under the ground. Now many more will die. Their blood is on our hands, regardless for whom we voted. If you pay taxes, you have contributed to the three billion dollars a week now being spent to drive Iraq into the hellhole it's become. When the civil war is over, we will have to help rebuild Iraq. We can receive no redemption until we have atoned.
We owe a large debt to Iraq. One that we cannot even start to repay until we stop making it worse.

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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4087 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 158 of 161 (366761)
11-29-2006 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Chiroptera
11-27-2006 6:04 PM


Re: evidence contrary to schraf's assertion
I'm not sure that this is true, but if it is then I would not be surprised.
My "very good chance" was purposely vague. I have met maybe seven or eight foster parents, and I can only think of one that wasn't a really terrible parent, at least to the foster children. I have met a large number of people who have been in foster homes. Neglect was very common, actual physical abuse was too common, though not pervasive. The worst part is how many perfectly normal kids had been diagnosed with some psychological problem and who were on medication, in special ed, living in a halfway house, etc. completely unnecessarily. Aaarrghh!
Since five such children are close friends of mine and two live in my house, none of whom are on any medication any more and are perfectly normal teenagers, it is very bothersome to me. The two who were in special ed would have been on SSI the rest of their lives being treated as incompetent adults when there is in fact nothing at all wrong with them. One's 19 now and working full-time. It's horrifying thinking what would have happened had they not gotten in a good home.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1432 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 159 of 161 (366991)
11-29-2006 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Wepwawet
11-26-2006 7:01 PM


Re: towards fair taxes
So it's fair to ask what the total income is for each person before trying to consider how any tax plan would apply.
Agreed, except that it is fair to ask what the total gain in personal value is for each person. What you net in the course of a year is your benefit from the economic system, and if that net is negative then you shouldn't have to pay taxes to support it or the government that makes it possible. If you net tons then you should support the economic system and the government that makes it possible.
RAZD, I'm on a personal boycott of Wally-World. I haven't shopped there (with the exception of a single emergency) in about two years. I think what they and several other large companies do amounts to slavery and that it will be their eventual downfall. Fair pay for work is something I sincerely believe in. I support legislation that will address this to include imposing a "corporate death-sentence" that will financially ruin every officer and executive of any company convicted of criminal conduct and divide the company and officers' assets between victims and employees. Stockholders are S.O.L. for bettin' on the wrong pony.
I can be a vindictive S.O.B. at times.
Sounds good to me. Enron as a case in point eh?
Reigning in dubya's spending is necessary to fix the problem, but dubya isn't the problem; rather our system of government that allows deficit spending in the absence of manifest necessity is the problem. I think we agree on that.
And we probably agree that the trade deficit is also a big problem for the US economy and will hurt the little guys more than the honcho types.
There was a discussion on the radio about china and the trade deficit and how their refusal to change the value of the dollar relative to the yen was preventing the equalization of trade (to make imports more costly, exports have more value).
I can't help but wonder sometimes if the old "protectionism" tax laws did have some merit, albeit misapplied in practice. There could be an automatic tax on imports based on last years trade balance and the relative values of the currencies (so changing values reduces the tax).
Of course, being a liberal, I would also like to see a tax on imports that pays a legitimate share of our social programs so that items built in countries that don't have that as part of the cost of their product cost can't compete unfairly with home products that do have it in their costs. Think of it as a buying tax rather than a selling tax.
Well there's always armed revolt. Seriously though, I wonder what it will take to get a government in place that will actually fix the broken system.
The problem is that revolt is not necessarily a solution. The problem is not just to dispose of the government of the day that is a problem, but the system of government that is the problem, and to do THAT you need to have a clear plan for a new and better form\kind of government or the revolt will just end up with the same-old same-old.
We saw this with the GOP "revolt" that took over congress with the pledge to america. We see this with Iraq.
We should never be satisfied with yesterday unless we fail to plan for tomorrow.
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Wepwawet, posted 11-26-2006 7:01 PM Wepwawet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Wepwawet, posted 11-30-2006 10:33 AM RAZD has replied

  
Wepwawet
Member (Idle past 6136 days)
Posts: 85
From: Texas
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 160 of 161 (367066)
11-30-2006 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by RAZD
11-29-2006 9:38 PM


Re: towards fair taxes
Have we all stopped beating our children now? Of course discussing taxes are really no more on-topic than spanking, but we were here first.
Agreed, except that it is fair to ask what the total gain in personal value is for each person. What you net in the course of a year is your benefit from the economic system, and if that net is negative then you shouldn't have to pay taxes to support it or the government that makes it possible. If you net tons then you should support the economic system and the government that makes it possible.
I'm not sure total gain in personal value is as good a marker as net income. I could fritter away a $500,000 a year income on a designer drug habit and at the end of the year have less personal value than a busboy.
Sounds good to me. Enron as a case in point eh?
The bastards should have been broken on the wheel. But barring that, yeah. I could probably name a few others but it'd just make my blood pressure go up.
And we probably agree that the trade deficit is also a big problem for the US economy and will hurt the little guys more than the honcho types.
I see the trade deficit as a problem more critical than the national debt. Unfortunately the trade deficit is not something that can be directly managed by the government and so we have to work on what we can fix and apply the right pressures to fix the trade deficit indirectly.
I can't help but wonder sometimes if the old "protectionism" tax laws did have some merit, albeit misapplied in practice. There could be an automatic tax on imports based on last years trade balance and the relative values of the currencies (so changing values reduces the tax).
If free trade were truly free trade such laws wouldn't be necessary. But since nobody seems to be playing fair it's foolish for us to not protect ourselves. I'd like to see a quid-pro-quo system in place that treats each nation in accordance to how it trades with us.
Of course, being a liberal, I would also like to see a tax on imports that pays a legitimate share of our social programs so that items built in countries that don't have that as part of the cost of their product cost can't compete unfairly with home products that do have it in their costs. Think of it as a buying tax rather than a selling tax.
That's a liberal policy I can live with. It meets the need of leveling the manufacturing playing field and it encourages other countries to adopt humane labor policies. I like it.
The problem is that revolt is not necessarily a solution. The problem is not just to dispose of the government of the day that is a problem, but the system of government that is the problem, and to do THAT you need to have a clear plan for a new and better form\kind of government or the revolt will just end up with the same-old same-old.
Maybe we ought to start a new thread for this topic...what would a perfect government look like...or something. My personal thought is that governments tend to exist as sort of a by-product of an economy. A single world economy would call for a single world government or you wind up creating nothing but economic friction. History shows us that business cannot be allowed to operate free of government control, but forcing business to compete with foreign businesses at a disadvantage is, I think, a failed economic policy.

When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by RAZD, posted 11-29-2006 9:38 PM RAZD has replied

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1432 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 161 of 161 (367169)
11-30-2006 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Wepwawet
11-30-2006 10:33 AM


Re: towards fair taxes
Maybe we ought to start a new thread for this topic...what would a perfect government look like...or something.
Evolution of Governments
Message 39
Fair enough.

This message is a reply to:
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