What are the odds of God existing?

In that case the probability must be 1. How could God not exist?{AbE} Just joshing DF. In case you didn't know a thread tops out and is closed at approx post #300. Lets leave the main protagonists to finish without further interuption from you or me. No offence...am as guilty as you (and THAT's a bigger issue than the one here)Welcome to EvCThis message has been edited by iano, 03-May-2006 11:56 PM

Just because you say it's perfectly reasonable and logical doesn't mean it's perfectly reasonable and logical.

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That's a pretty good premise. Science itself is all about understanding cause and effect. I'm trying to think of an example of an action which occurred with absolutely no cause but I'm coming up short.

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And if we cannot come up with an example, what would this prove? We humans have not even come close to observing all the phenomena that have occurred, is occurring, and will occur.At any rate, I am not aware of an example of anything causing space or time to appear, are you? If you can point to an example where a known cause created space and/or time , then that will be a pretty good candidate for whatever caused the universe to exist. Such an example would be illuminating.Be careful that you do not commit the Fallacy of Composition; that the whole must have the same properties as its parts. Even if it can be established that everthing that exists within the universe has a cause, it doesn't necessarily mean that the universe itself has a cause.Also, science is the study of phenomena that exists within the universe. The existence/cause/creation of the universe itself is of such a singular nature that science may not have much to say about it.At any rate, since the creation of the universe ex nihilo involves the creation of time and space itself, I don't even know what "cause" would mean in this context.-

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The probability that God exists is either 0 or 1.

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And if I flip a coin, the probability that it will land heads is either 0 or 1. The probability that the next person to enter this building is over 6 feet tall is either 0 or 1. The probability that it will rain tomorrow is either 0 or 1. Hey, we have completely eliminated the need for statistics!

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"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

And there was me trying to add a sense of decorum, a sense of gravitas to the terminal stages of the illness. Only to have Chiro leap on any old toss-in that happens to be tossed-in. And by a post #1 no less!Where's me STOP - STEP AWAY FROM THE VEHICLE sign??

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Just because you say it's perfectly reasonable and logical doesn't mean it's perfectly reasonable and logical.

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To say that it is not logical means that it must contradict some accepted fact or assumption. What is being contradicted in this case? A universe that has no cause and has existed for only a finite time seems self-consistent to me. I see nothing that is contradicted. Where is the contradiction?

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"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

Just because you say there's no contradiction doesn't mean there's no contradiction.

That is true. And if a contradiction can be shown, then I will be wrong.

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"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

No, not too different. That's a good picture. Now God being God, that DVD can be infinitely long or it can be of finite duration. But God did not create it "at the beginning"... he created the DVD complete. The moment of creation sits outisde the timeline experienced by the characters in the film.The BIG question is how much autonomy did God leave the characters in the film with to make their own destiny...[ABE to save posts]So far there doesn't appear to a be a contradiction in the physics. Maybe we will find one, which would be great as it would narrow down our possibilities. As scientists, that is what we want: no-go theorems... "This is not possible".If you think that this is illogical, you should try some of the really weird physics I still haven't had a black hole thread to play with...This message has been edited by cavediver, 05-03-2006 07:18 PM

He says finite: Genesis = in the beginning, Revelation = in the end. Time is a bubble pushed out of the skin of eternity. A subset of eternity if you will. I haven't modelled it yet though... Absolutely. He knew all events before a frame of film was exposed. "Them he called (pre-christian) he also justified, (at conversion) them who he justified he also glorified (in heaven)". God is already enjoying the company of those who 'will' be in heaven (and them him) and exposing to his wrath those who 'will' be in Hell (and them receiving). Time is the canvas on which this main event was/is already/ will be... painted out. A sideshow - albeit an important one.Private Rohan is just getting into having a crush on his high school history teacher Total/none. If a person is lost then they will have earned that wage (of sin) totally by themselves. Perfect justice demands that there can be no finger pointing at God (perfect punishment would deny one that comfort)If, on the otherhand they are saved, then Goddidit. Its the predestination/freewill.... interface/(in time only)paradox in sharp reliefGod saves man vs. man loses himself. Perfect grace vs. perfect justice. He choses - you pickThis message has been edited by iano, 04-May-2006 12:31 AMThis message has been edited by iano, 04-May-2006 12:33 AMThis message has been edited by iano, 04-May-2006 02:16 AM

I don't like these paradoxes, iano.This message has been edited by robinrohan, 05-04-2006 04:58 AM

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God does not "exist."---Paul Tillich, Christian theologian

It is a paradox..or perhaps better...a tension. But only in our time based realm. The mechanism of salvation is Gods design. Its correct and coherant functioning must only satisfy (and be comprehensible and acceptable to one person - Him).If you pictured space/time as a flat sheet of paper and looked at a plan view of a house you couldn't see all the detail "How does it work?"You would have to have the third, vertical dimension open to you in order that you can get a genuine 3d model which can be walked through and every detail of the house examined. That dimension is only open to God. Suffice to say the mechanism of salvation does not require that YOu can intellectually resolve IT in order for IT to work on YOU. Thank God.There is sufficient in what you all ready know (if I have read you correctly these last months) for the paradox to satisfy much of what you already know.God saves: aligns perfectly with it being Gods grace which saves - a theme you are familiar with. "A righteousness FROM God". "The Gospel is the power OF God unto salvation (God winds the handle on the salvation mechanism)"Only mans rejection of God mechanisms can result in his condemnation : aligns with any sense you might have of perfect justice and punishment. Any punishment must be fully deserved. God cannot be implicated in any way for a mans condemnation otherwise the justice isn't perfectGods predestining: aligns with God knowing who will come before they do. He knows who won't reject and thus he can call them in the effectual way that results in their comingLike I said: intellectual understanding is not a requirement for being saved - otherwise it would be "Jesus came to seek and save the smart". God can use your intellect as a vehicle however. He can (in your non rejection) have your intellect go 'Ping' so as to get various aspects of the gospel which are currently shut to you.The game is played out in any case in a place other than the intellect. Your only a Private Robin. Your role is to follow orders. "Believe" is the order. If you ever do, then he will have been the one to enable you to carry it out.

I don't "already know" anything, and the something-from-nothing idea has got me totally confused. I don't get it.

From John Blanchards "Does God Believe in Athiests"* Richard Feynman, The Character of Physical Law, MIT press p.27Feel better RR?This message has been edited by iano, 04-May-2006 01:39 PM

iano, I don't think anyone advocates this scientifically.The fact of the matter is that we simply don't know. The big bang is the beginning of our universe..... there is no "something coming from nothing". There is also no "before" the big bang. The big bang is the point at which t=0 in our timeline.Remember that time is a property of our universe and the big bang is the start point for this property.

All this talk about using "logic" to discuss the existence (or other attributes) of God reminds me of a Tom the Dancing Bug cartoon: